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Old 09-09-2013, 08:30 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Undead Icon (War3) What should be done with the Forsaken?

Alright. I made a thread for this since, even after leaving the "What have we learned from Pandaria?" thread and stating that I did not want to derail it, a full page of it is now dedicated to Lordaeron.

/sigh

So, here's a thread to discuss your oh-so-burning desire to see the Alliance kill enough people to constitute a major political power - regardless of whether they are military personnel, apothecaries, or civilians and actually complicit or culpable for the crimes committed - and how this could not possibly backfire or have dire repercussions on the way others view the Alliance or the way the Alliance views itself in any way, shape, or form.

Just, please, keep it out of the thread I accidentally necro'd a few days ago, alright? Alright.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:45 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Not exterminated, but the removal of the Val'kyr after a string of military defeats, and Forsaken aggression halted.

Prince Galen slain by the returning Danath, and Stromgarde secured by the Alliance.

Forsaken forces pushed back beyond Thoradin's Wall and across the river dissecting roughly a third of Hillsbrad, with the Alliance taking and fortifying Durnholde and Dun Garok as border forts.

Forsaken forces pushed completely out of Gilneas, though they can keep Shadowfang Keep and Pyrewood as a border fort/town.

Ambermill also remains in Forsaken hands.

Chillwind Camp is taken by the Forsaken, and Andorhal is kept in their hands, they can even have Caer Darrow as a border fort watching over the pass from the Hinterlands, which would be under solid Wildhammer control. Other than that, Western Plaguelands is divided between the Forsaken and the Argent Crusade.

Alterac is also taken by the Forsaken.

Population for the Forsaken will not be an issue until far in the future, and by that point WoW would have ended and their story can be wrapped up in a more favourable light in an RTS game.

Them needing a way to reproduce to remain playable in WoW is a non-argument. They do not need this.

This territorial solution leaves everything solid, and does not leave little 'blobs' of Alliance or Forsaken territory in Alliance or Forsaken held land. As an example, Chillwind. This removes any potential for 'land disputes' until the truce runs out in a few years time.

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 09-09-2013 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:53 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Not exterminated, but the removal of the Val'kyr after a string of military defeats, and Forsaken aggression halted.

Prince Galen slain by the returning Danath, and Stromgarde secured by the Alliance.

Forsaken forces pushed back beyond Thoradin's Wall and across the river dissecting roughly a third of Hillsbrad, with the Alliance taking and fortifying Durnholde and Dun Garok as border forts.

Forsaken forces pushed completely out of Gilneas, though they can keep Shadowfang Keep and Pyrewood as a border fort/town.

Ambermill also remains in Forsaken hands.

Chillwind Camp is taken by the Forsaken, and Andorhal is kept in their hands, they can even have Caer Darrow as a border fort watching over the pass from the Hinterlands, which would be under solid Wildhammer control. Other than that, Western Plaguelands is divided between the Forsaken and the Argent Crusade.

Alterac is also taken by the Forsaken.

Population for the Forsaken will not be an issue until far in the future, and by that point WoW would have ended and their story can be wrapped up in a more favourable light in an RTS game.

Them needing a way to reproduce to remain playable in WoW is a non-argument. They do not need this.

This territorial solution leaves everything solid, and does not leave little 'blobs' of Alliance or Forsaken territory in Alliance or Forsaken held land. As an example, Chillwind. This removes any potential for 'land disputes' until the truce runs out in a few years time.
What I'd do instead is to keep Chillwind in Alliance hands, put an Alliance presence in Caer Darrow, Keep Durnholde in Forsaken hands but Dun Garok as the Main Alliance base watching over the eastern border.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:54 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Give them a superweapon. Have them repel the Alliance, neutrals, even Horde if they fight against them. Don't make them conquer because they don't want to, and they can be the Horde's problem.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:01 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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What I'd do instead is to keep Chillwind in Alliance hands, put an Alliance presence in Caer Darrow, Keep Durnholde in Forsaken hands but Dun Garok as the Main Alliance base watching over the eastern border.
This makes it harder for the Alliance in the long run. It makes the borders difficult to manage, strung out and less compact.

Even with Dun Garok watching Durnholde, a force from Durnholde, if it ever came to war, could be through the Thoradin's Wall and securing a solid position beyond it for an attack on Stromgarde before Dun Garok's forces could even react. Durnholde would then be reinforced by Forsaken soldiers from Tarren Mill and other Hillsbrad holdings. The forces from Dun Garok would not be able to bypass Durnholde to attack these relatively undefended towns, because that would bring them in range of Durnholde. Durnholde controls the road, any force from Dun Garok attempting to bypass Durnholde to attack Tarren Mill would be annihilated.

Chillwind Camp would never have the manpower to repel or even hold a Forsaken offensive from both Alterac to the west and Andorhal to the north, thus leading to a needless waste of life.

The Forsaken have proven they can keep the worgen and even the 7th Legion contained at the Greymane Wall, so the forces from the Undercity and Silverpine can hold them there. This works vice versa, too. This front would be a stalemate.

Caer Darrow is far removed from any other Alliance presence. The Forsaken from Andorhal and Alterac, after easily defeating Chillwind, can easily surround the island and cut it off. Any supplies trying to reach it through the pass in the Hinterlands would be destroyed, the Forsaken would hold the chokepoint. Caer Darrow would fall in short order. More lives wasted trying to hold an unholdable position in the event of war.

In my solution, none of this is an issue. Alliance forces are centralised in Durnholde and Dun Garok, no lives would be lost in Chillwind and the Wildhammer, not the Forsaken, would control the chokepoint of the pass. As mentioned before the Gilneas front would be a stalemate due to the Greymane Wall. This completely negates the Forsaken's ability to wage war.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:06 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think a cool thing for the Forsaken to do is start digging up older corpses, ancient even if they are well preserved.

Think about it, the most noble heroes of the Kingdoms got moved to Light's Hope to avoid them being desecrated. But what about old nobles? Who built vast tombs, perhaps preserved their bodies in mausoleums but never actually did anything of public worth. Would people really risk their lives to "save" those guys and galls?

Those people could be dug up and raised by the Forsaken, giving them that rotten aristocrat vibe, pun intended. They'd be posh and arrogant, also bringing in their advanced skills to the Forsaken society. I feel they (and other, commoner Forsaken who muscled into a position of prestige) could become a counterweight to Sylvanas, unwilling to surrender their individuality and lacking the fervent loyalty original Scourge made Forsaken have for her.

That way numbers increase, Forsaken situation develops and no new murders are strictly necessary *cough*
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:12 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think a cool thing for the Forsaken to do is start digging up older corpses, ancient even if they are well preserved.

Think about it, the most noble heroes of the Kingdoms got moved to Light's Hope to avoid them being desecrated. But what about old nobles? Who built vast tombs, perhaps preserved their bodies in mausoleums but never actually did anything of public worth. Would people really risk their lives to "save" those guys and galls?

Those people could be dug up and raised by the Forsaken, giving them that rotten aristocrat vibe, pun intended. They'd be posh and arrogant, also bringing in their advanced skills to the Forsaken society. I feel they (and other, commoner Forsaken who muscled into a position of prestige) could become a counterweight to Sylvanas, unwilling to surrender their individuality and lacking the fervent loyalty original Scourge made Forsaken have for her.

That way numbers increase, Forsaken situation develops and no new murders are strictly necessary *cough*
I might be wrong but I am pretty sure all the dead in Lordaeron that were able to the be raised -were- raised by the Cult of the Damned during the initial Scourge invasion.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Gandred Gandred is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
Not exterminated, but the removal of the Val'kyr after a string of military defeats, and Forsaken aggression halted.

Prince Galen slain by the returning Danath, and Stromgarde secured by the Alliance.

Forsaken forces pushed back beyond Thoradin's Wall and across the river dissecting roughly a third of Hillsbrad, with the Alliance taking and fortifying Durnholde and Dun Garok as border forts.

Forsaken forces pushed completely out of Gilneas, though they can keep Shadowfang Keep and Pyrewood as a border fort/town.

Ambermill also remains in Forsaken hands.

Chillwind Camp is taken by the Forsaken, and Andorhal is kept in their hands, they can even have Caer Darrow as a border fort watching over the pass from the Hinterlands, which would be under solid Wildhammer control. Other than that, Western Plaguelands is divided between the Forsaken and the Argent Crusade.

Alterac is also taken by the Forsaken.

Population for the Forsaken will not be an issue until far in the future, and by that point WoW would have ended and their story can be wrapped up in a more favourable light in an RTS game.

Them needing a way to reproduce to remain playable in WoW is a non-argument. They do not need this.

This territorial solution leaves everything solid, and does not leave little 'blobs' of Alliance or Forsaken territory in Alliance or Forsaken held land. As an example, Chillwind. This removes any potential for 'land disputes' until the truce runs out in a few years time.
To this I would add:

- Sylvanas executed, replaced with a leader that cares about their people.
- Kor'Kron Overseers replaced with Argent Crusade Paladins.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:17 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Turn Sylvanas back into a day elf and start the forsaken back onto the road to redemption.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:18 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Sylvanas executed is ideal, but it is not absolutely 100% needed. It could be possible however.

Argent Crusade or even Ebon Blade oversight in place of Alliance oversight may make the admittedly bitter pill of terms dictated to them easier for the Forsaken to swallow.

Good additions.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:23 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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What I'd do instead is to keep Chillwind in Alliance hands, put an Alliance presence in Caer Darrow, Keep Durnholde in Forsaken hands but Dun Garok as the Main Alliance base watching over the eastern border.
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Give them a superweapon. Have them repel the Alliance, neutrals, even Horde if they fight against them. Don't make them conquer because they don't want to, and they can be the Horde's problem.
That both posts so far are civil is impressive to me considering how people like to start flame wars on this sort of thread. Thank you both.



On-topic, I like Yaskaleh's idea. Keeping Andorhal doesn't feel right to me after Southshore, but it sort of balances out if Dun Garok is inhabited.

The Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad scenario gives the Forsaken enough land, especially with the (please let it be final) defeat of the Scarlet Crusade. They now own Deathknell, Brill, Lordaeron City, Ambermill, Pyrewood, Tarren Mill, and Southshore as settlements. If they focus on rebuilding Pyrewood and Ambermill, and clean up Southshore, they could have a fine-looking kingdom in the end.

Repurpose the Scarlet Monastery for the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, and we have a glorious haven of death. Being forced to play nice with the Alliance around their borders also halts the give-take nature of Forsaken conflict - they don't need to resurrect Alliance humans (they could, however, rez leftover Syndicate members) because they aren't losing manpower to the Alliance. Combined with the recruits they already gained through Cata and MoP, they can justify their numbers in a relatively believable way.

They already have a superweapon, which it good enough deterrence to maintain "peace" and a Cold War-like tension between the Forsaken's Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, and the Alliance's Lordaeron; the Argent Crusade would play "peacekeeper" on the northeastern border.

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The Forsaken will find a way.

That said, I'm sometimes terrible with words. What I meant to say is that through the act of genocide they killed every single human in the vanilla zone defined as Hillsbrad. Well, except one person, but that was more due to a dev oversight than anything else.

And would you prefer ethnic/racial cleansing? More or less the same thing.
This was from the other thread; I may as well address it.

The destruction of a town and a field does not a genocide make. A genocide is the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

Were the Forsaken to intentionally and systematically plague-bomb every human settlement remaining in Lordaeron (including Hearthglen and Light's Hope Chapel), then we would have a genocide. As they have not, please stop throwing this term around because you clearly do not understand its meaning.

While the Forsaken's actions at Southshore are morally reprehensible to say the least, they are the conclusion of a long, drawn-out conflict that began in Vanilla which, according to Kingslayer Orkus, turned the fields into a warzone regardless. In truth, civilians should have been evacuated from Southshore long ago to prevent this scenario, but I do not fault the Alliance for not doing that to the citizens of Southshore who had suffered and lost so much already.

Still, the Forsaken didn't systematically slaughter every man, woman, and child in Southshore anyway - or, not intentionally. I doubt many of Hillsbrad's humans are left now.

Those who fled east were killed at the Thoradin Wall, so that's a good number dead. Many more were interned in the Sludge Fields, where Warden Stillwater performed explicitly illegal experimentation that was one of many atrocities warranting his immediate execution.

Then there are the many humans who sought refuge in Fenris Isle and accepted the worgen curse. The actual number is unknown, but they clearly number much higher than 80 ("Rise, Forsaken", "Reinforcements from Fenris", "The Waters Run Red"); I'd give a figure well over 100 prior to casualties and enough to show up in Hillsbrad later on in "Helcular's Rod Giveth".
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:24 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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This makes it harder for the Alliance in the long run. It makes the borders difficult to manage, strung out and less compact.

Even with Dun Garok watching Durnholde, a force from Durnholde, if it ever came to war, could be through the Thoradin's Wall and securing a solid position beyond it for an attack on Stromgarde before Dun Garok's forces could even react. Durnholde would then be reinforced by Forsaken soldiers from Tarren Mill and other Hillsbrad holdings. The forces from Dun Garok would not be able to bypass Durnholde to attack these relatively undefended towns, because that would bring them in range of Durnholde. Durnholde controls the road, any force from Dun Garok attempting to bypass Durnholde to attack Tarren Mill would be annihilated.

Chillwind Camp would never have the manpower to repel or even hold a Forsaken offensive from both Alterac to the west and Andorhal to the north, thus leading to a needless waste of life.

The Forsaken have proven they can keep the worgen and even the 7th Legion contained at the Greymane Wall, so the forces from the Undercity and Silverpine can hold them there. This works vice versa, too. This front would be a stalemate.

Caer Darrow is far removed from any other Alliance presence. The Forsaken from Andorhal and Alterac, after easily defeating Chillwind, can easily surround the island and cut it off. Any supplies trying to reach it through the pass in the Hinterlands would be destroyed, the Forsaken would hold the chokepoint. Caer Darrow would fall in short order. More lives wasted trying to hold an unholdable position in the event of war.

In my solution, none of this is an issue. Alliance forces are centralised in Durnholde and Dun Garok, no lives would be lost in Chillwind and the Wildhammer, not the Forsaken, would control the chokepoint of the pass. As mentioned before the Gilneas front would be a stalemate due to the Greymane Wall. This completely negates the Forsaken's ability to wage war.
Gun Garok wouldn't be the only defense ofc, The Wall itself would have to be repaired and manned with stalwart Stromgardians. Gun Garok could easily be said to be supplied by sea or thorugh tunnels to the eastern side of the mountains.
The point of this is to atleast give the forsaken something east of Tarren Mill to provide as a buffer eventhough it fills my mouth with vomit.
The Alliance have to keep Chillwind, if only to keep an escape corridor for the Alliance forces in Alterac Valley. To abandon the Stormpike would be a heinous crime. The idea is that Chillwind together with the eastern cemetary would act as a buffer and listening post, keeping an eye on the Forsaken movements north of the river. Fortifying Caer Darrow would be to keep a military presence in the north and to guard the entrance to the Hinterlands. A supply chain can be kept from Dun Modr through Arathi and the hinterlands to Caer Darrow. The main reason besides helping the Stormpikes would be to have a way of assisting the damned Argents whenever the Forsaken try to exterminate them to clear their "lebensraum".This way the Argents have two paths for resources and manpower to move into Argentlands. By land and by the sea in New Avalon.
for a future setting which isn't wow or rts the Argentlands could be used as a neutral theatre.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:24 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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did you ignore my post.

it was civil
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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did you ignore my post.

it was civil
I started my post when there were only two replies. I'll get to everyone, if I can.

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To this I would add:

- Sylvanas executed, replaced with a leader that cares about their people.
- Kor'Kron Overseers replaced with Argent Crusade Paladins.
The problem is that, after her suicide at Icecrown, Sylvanas cares about her people as much as any Forsaken leader could be expected to care about her people. The entire point of the short story was her progression from seeing them as cannon-fodder (like Garrosh or Arthas) to seeing them as her protectors.

Just because she doesn't care about them in the warm, kind way (something I've yet to see in any other Forsaken as well) doesn't mean she is entirely uncaring. Her reactions to the loss of her troops in Silverpine and Andorhal imply that she now takes these things very personally.

Furthermore, I don't see the execution of Sylvanas as beneficial to anyone at all. All it would accomplish is removing the pragmatic leader who has curbed many of the more vicious Forsaken, who actively express genocidal aspirations, and has kept her people safe through insurmountable odds.

If you look at Gilneas from a Forsaken point-of-view, the entire thing was hopeless-looking. The only reason the worgen starting zone is possible is Sylvanas' ability to ally with Fangfire and the good luck of having the cataclysm take place.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:28 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Gun Garok wouldn't be the only defense ofc, The Wall itself would have to be repaired and manned with stalwart Stromgardians. Gun Garok could easily be said to be supplied by sea or thorugh tunnels to the eastern side of the mountains.
The point of this is to atleast give the forsaken something east of Tarren Mill to provide as a buffer eventhough it fills my mouth with vomit.
The Alliance have to keep Chillwind, if only to keep an escape corridor for the Alliance forces in Alterac Valley. To abandon the Stormpike would be a heinous crime. The idea is that Chillwind together with the eastern cemetary would act as a buffer and listening post, keeping an eye on the Forsaken movements north of the river. Fortifying Caer Darrow would be to keep a military presence in the north and to guard the entrance to the Hinterlands. A supply chain can be kept from Dun Modr through Arathi and the hinterlands to Caer Darrow. The main reason besides helping the Stormpikes would be to have a way of assisting the damned Argents whenever the Forsaken try to exterminate them to clear their "lebensraum".This way the Argents have to paths for resources and manpower to move into Argentlands. By land and by the sea in New Avalon.
for a future setting which isn't wow or rts the Argentlands could be used as a neutral theatre.
Thoradin's Wall is facing the wrong way to be at all useful against an attack from the west. That's another good point of my solution with Durnholde and Dun Garok being in Alliance hands - It removes Thoradin's Wall from the Forsaken. If they had the chance to fortify it during peace time, good luck trying to get a force through it.

The river is a buffer for the Forsaken, with Tarren Mill and Southshore garrisoned. A river is very difficult for a large invading force that uses plated soldiers and tanks as a basis to cross.

The Stormpike have suffered massive defeats as per lore. They should pull back and relocate to Dun Garok.

Chillwind being a listening post is silly. It's not secret in the slightest. It's on the main thoroughfare from Andorhal to Tarren Mill. Being a listening post just reinforces my point that it would fall within the first day of war being declared, with all of those who are garrisoned there slain. A pointless waste of life. Besides, when the Alliance has the homeland of the Wildhammers right there, they have scouts ready, able and willing to do the job. Chillwind is not needed.

Caer Darrow is still far removed and can be completely cut off with ease from reinforcements in the event of a war. This results in, like Chillwind, pointless waste of life. And as I said, which you ignored, the supply chain is cut off because the Forsaken hold the chokepoint of the pass from the Hinterlands, they could easily hold back any reinforcements and take supplies for themselves whilst they starve Caer Darrow out.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:31 AM
Gandred Gandred is offline

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The entire point of the short story was her progression from seeing them as cannon-fodder (like Garrosh or Arthas) to seeing them as her protectors.
That's kinda my point. Where as before she only cared about them to the extent that they could help her get revenge, now she only cares about them to the extent that they can keep her alive. No one wants a leader that would sell you out in a second if they would benefit from it.

Oh, and about Chillwind, isn't that a joint Alliance-Argent base?
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:32 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:34 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Thoradin's Wall is facing the wrong way to be at all useful against an attack from the west.

The river is a buffer for the Forsaken, with Tarren Mill and Southshore garrisoned. A river is very difficult for a large invading force that uses plated soldiers and tanks as a basis to cross.

The Stormpike have suffered massive defeats as per lore. They should pull back and relocate to Dun Garok.

Chillwind being a listening post is silly. It's not secret in the slightest. It's on the main thoroughfare from Andorhal to Tarren Mill. Being a listening post just reinforces my point that it would fall within the first day of war being declared, with all of those who are garrisoned there slain. A pointless waste of life. Besides, when the Alliance has the homeland of the Wildhammers right there, they have scouts ready, able and willing to do the job. Chillwind is not needed.

Caer Darrow is still far removed and can be completely cut off with ease from reinforcements in the event of a war. This results in, like Chillwind, pointless waste of life. And as I said, which you ignored, the supply chain is cut off because the Forsaken hold the chokepoint of the pass from the Hinterlands, they could easily hold back any reinforcements and take supplies for themselves whilst they starve Caer Darrow out.
The Tomb of Uther and the burried Alliance dead there has to be kept out of Forsaken hands no matter the cost or losses. Anything else would be such a crime the Alliance should just disband and surrender themselves to the un-mercy of the Forsaken. A line has to be drawn somewhere and it should be right by the resting place of some of the Alliance greatest heroes, the slain warriors and civilians of noble Lordaeron.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:36 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Who cares? We're talking about the future. In this future the Alliance acknowledges that Lordaeron will not be theirs for a very long time.

And you seem to have missed my 'All Val'kyr's killed' line on the very first part of my post. They would not be able to use those corpses.

If necessary, the clause "The Argent Crusade guards the cemetery" can be added.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:40 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Not exterminated, but the removal of the Val'kyr after a string of military defeats, and Forsaken aggression halted.

Prince Galen slain by the returning Danath, and Stromgarde secured by the Alliance.

Forsaken forces pushed back beyond Thoradin's Wall and across the river dissecting roughly a third of Hillsbrad, with the Alliance taking and fortifying Durnholde and Dun Garok as border forts.

Forsaken forces pushed completely out of Gilneas, though they can keep Shadowfang Keep and Pyrewood as a border fort/town.

Ambermill also remains in Forsaken hands.

Chillwind Camp is taken by the Forsaken, and Andorhal is kept in their hands, they can even have Caer Darrow as a border fort watching over the pass from the Hinterlands, which would be under solid Wildhammer control. Other than that, Western Plaguelands is divided between the Forsaken and the Argent Crusade.

Alterac is also taken by the Forsaken.

Population for the Forsaken will not be an issue until far in the future, and by that point WoW would have ended and their story can be wrapped up in a more favourable light in an RTS game.

Them needing a way to reproduce to remain playable in WoW is a non-argument. They do not need this.

This territorial solution leaves everything solid, and does not leave little 'blobs' of Alliance or Forsaken territory in Alliance or Forsaken held land. As an example, Chillwind. This removes any potential for 'land disputes' until the truce runs out in a few years time.
I wouldn't take out the val'kyr, mostly because I see them as having a positive effect on Sylvanas rather than a negative one. They, at the least, clearly care about the Forsaken - more deeply than Sylvanas does, in fact. To kill them merely because they are capable of raising the dead and did so when ordered isn't exactly justifiable when the Ebon Blade has the exact same capabilities and has also used them under orders.

Forsaken forces are already out of Gilneas.

Chillwind going to the Forsaken makes no sense to me - this is the Horde's loss, not the Alliance's. And kicking the Revantusk from the Hinterlands is just cruel, given that they haven't really done anything to merit it - in fact, they got rid of the more hostile trolls in the area.

Alterac is Frostwolf. They'd have to pry it from Drek'thar's cold, dead hands.

I don't find it necessary for Galen to be slain, but he should be chased from his country by Danath.

By taking away Andohal as reparations, you remove the Horde blob from the otherwise Argent/Alliance territory and show that there are losses outside of the territories the Forsaken invaded in Cataclysm.

Last edited by Valtheria; 09-09-2013 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:42 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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The Tomb of Uther and the burried Alliance dead there has to be kept out of Forsaken hands no matter the cost or losses. Anything else would be such a crime the Alliance should just disband and surrender themselves to the un-mercy of the Forsaken. A line has to be drawn somewhere and it should be right by the resting place of some of the Alliance greatest heroes, the slain warriors and civilians of noble Lordaeron.
There's a time limit on how long you can resurrect a corpse, and paladins are protected from most things short of the Scourge, anyway.

Last edited by Valtheria; 09-09-2013 at 09:43 AM.. Reason: Quoted self and double-posted. >_<
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:44 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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I wouldn't take out the val'kyr, mostly because I see them as having a positive effect on Sylvanas rather than a negative one. They, at the least, clearly care about the Forsaken - more deeply than Sylvanas does, in fact. To kill them merely because they are capable of raising the dead and did so when ordered isn't exactly justifiable when the Ebon Blade has the exact same capabilities and has also used them under orders.

Forsaken forces are already out of Gilneas.

Chilwind going to the Forsaken makes no sense to me - this is the Horde's loss, not the Alliance's. And kicking the Revantusk from the Hinterlands is just cruel, given that they haven't really done anything to merit it - in fact, they got rid of the more hostile trolls in the area.

Alterac is Frostwolf. They'd have to pry it from Drek'thar's cold, dead hands.

I don't find it necessary for Galen to be slain, but he should be chased from his country by Danath.

By taking away Andohal as reparations, you remove the Horde blob from the otherwise Argent/Alliance territory and show that there are losses outside of the territories the Forsaken invaded in Cataclysm.
The Val'kyr are not a positive effect in the slightest.

Good. They can stay out, then.

Giving up one small camp is not a massive loss to the Alliance, and it shows they are serious about keeping the peace. Giving a little bit even whilst you're taking a lot is a good thing to do in negotiations of this kind, where you are, hopefully, trying to forge a long lasting peace. The Revantusk fight against the Wildhammers in Cataclysm. Though by all means they're not going to be kicked out. They can keep their village and hold the coast, a port there for the Alliance would be useless, anyways. Jintha'alor? If they have the numbers to populate it, by all means, it could be crushed by the Wildhammers in short order anyways.

Alterac. Not Alterac Valley.

He needs to be slain because he has a more legitimate claim to the throne of Stromgarde than Danath. He gives the Forsaken a casus beli for future war whilst existing.

Andorhal would be a populated town/city on the borders. It would be a border-city. Having something like that is a huge liability. It makes the Alliance borders more stretched out and harder to defend. Giving it to the Alliance is foolish.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:45 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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The number of Val'kyr continues dwindling and Sylvanas is forced to open her own Scholomance. The purpose is two-fold:
  1. Training necromancers to keep the population stable.
  2. Attempting to recreate the more powerful undead, despite lacking the LK's power. (Whether they are successful is something I leave to others to decide.)

The Forsaken withdraw from the Plaguelands, which become a neutral zone under the protection of the AC and EB. The ER and CC help them heal the land.

The Forsaken withdraw from Gilneas, but the Alliance allows them to keep the lands outside of the wall. Greymane gave them up, so he forsook his claim.

The Forsaken allow the Alliance to reclaim Southshore and Dun Garok, in the Hillsbrad Foothills, out of spite. The Alliance, contrary to the expectations of the Forsaken, manage to make them inhabitable.

The Forsaken move out of Arathi.

The Forsaken stop raising recently deceased Alliance soldiers, to appease the Alliance. Instead, they resort to grave robbing. As a result, some of their new recruits are often nothing more than animated skeletons and not intelligent undead like the true Forsaken.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:54 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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The Val'kyr are not a positive effect in the slightest.

Good. They can stay out, then.

Giving up one small camp is not a massive loss to the Alliance, and it shows they are serious about keeping the peace. Giving a little bit even whilst you're taking a lot is a good thing to do in negotiations of this kind, where you are, hopefully, trying to forge a long lasting peace. The Revantusk fight against the Wildhammers in Cataclysm. Though by all means they're not going to be kicked out. They can keep their village and hold the coast, a port there for the Alliance would be useless, anyways. Jintha'alor? If they have the numbers to populate it, by all means, it could be crushed by the Wildhammers in short order anyways.

Alterac. Not Alterac Valley.

He needs to be slain because he has a more legitimate claim to the throne of Stromgarde than Danath. He gives the Forsaken a casus beli for future war whilst existing.

Andorhal would be a populated town/city on the borders. It would be a border-city. Having something like that is a huge liability. It makes the Alliance borders more stretched out and harder to defend. Giving it to the Alliance is foolish.
By not killing the val'kyr and allowing them to keep Hillsbrad, they've given more than enough. Besides, having the Forsaken right next to Andorhal and far from Argent intervention can't be a good idea if we're going to give it to Hillsbrad refugees.

Aside from that, whether the val'kyr are a positive or negative effect is subjective. I don't see the point in arguing it, so we'll disagree on that point.

As for Galen remaining alive: that's a good thing - an impetus for future conflict isn't always a bad thing; I'm trying to offer possible consequences, not sterilize the Forsaken's story altogether.

It's the same reason I don't think it's okay to destroy the val'kyr for the crime of existing and following orders, nor killing Sylvanas for using any means necessary to attain her goals. These things are totally in line with who and what the Forsaken are as a faction, and the val'kyr add a lot from the storyline perspective.

As for the Alterac/Alterac Valley thing, we see that the Frostwolf inhabit the northern half of Hillsbrad. If they cleared out the ogres and humans, they could have a peaceful place or residence (and a place for the Hammerfall Horde members who would be displaced by Danath's return).

And Andorhal's population wouldn't be that great, but even if it was, it'd be primarily under Fordring's protection, not the Alliance's alone. He's not going to stand idly as a large civilian population is harmed just south of Hearthglen so long as he's its Highlord. The city would be something more like an Alliance-leaning neutral area due to the citizen's hatred for the Forsaken.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:56 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Thoradin's Wall is facing the wrong way to be at all useful against an attack from the west. That's another good point of my solution with Durnholde and Dun Garok being in Alliance hands - It removes Thoradin's Wall from the Forsaken. If they had the chance to fortify it during peace time, good luck trying to get a force through it.

The river is a buffer for the Forsaken, with Tarren Mill and Southshore garrisoned. A river is very difficult for a large invading force that uses plated soldiers and tanks as a basis to cross.

The Stormpike have suffered massive defeats as per lore. They should pull back and relocate to Dun Garok.

Chillwind being a listening post is silly. It's not secret in the slightest. It's on the main thoroughfare from Andorhal to Tarren Mill. Being a listening post just reinforces my point that it would fall within the first day of war being declared, with all of those who are garrisoned there slain. A pointless waste of life. Besides, when the Alliance has the homeland of the Wildhammers right there, they have scouts ready, able and willing to do the job. Chillwind is not needed.

Caer Darrow is still far removed and can be completely cut off with ease from reinforcements in the event of a war. This results in, like Chillwind, pointless waste of life. And as I said, which you ignored, the supply chain is cut off because the Forsaken hold the chokepoint of the pass from the Hinterlands, they could easily hold back any reinforcements and take supplies for themselves whilst they starve Caer Darrow out.
The wall problem can be fixed easily enough. But I do agree that the Alliance should have Durnhold and Dun Garok. I think the Alliance should get Caer Darrow too. It's not as vulnerable as you seem to think it is TB. It's would be extremely easy to refortify it and as a fort, it would have stores against a siege. It would also be invulnerable from poisoned water (it's in a huge lake...) and it's not like the pass to the Hinterlands would be unfortified by the Wildhammer. Only a military idiot would not reinforce that.

I also think that the Alliance would be loath to let Uther's tomb and the graveyard there be held by the forsaken, who show a disturbing tendency to violate every graveyard they find.

Quote:
I think a cool thing for the Forsaken to do is start digging up older corpses, ancient even if they are well preserved.

Think about it, the most noble heroes of the Kingdoms got moved to Light's Hope to avoid them being desecrated. But what about old nobles? Who built vast tombs, perhaps preserved their bodies in mausoleums but never actually did anything of public worth. Would people really risk their lives to "save" those guys and galls?

Those people could be dug up and raised by the Forsaken, giving them that rotten aristocrat vibe, pun intended. They'd be posh and arrogant, also bringing in their advanced skills to the Forsaken society. I feel they (and other, commoner Forsaken who muscled into a position of prestige) could become a counterweight to Sylvanas, unwilling to surrender their individuality and lacking the fervent loyalty original Scourge made Forsaken have for her.

That way numbers increase, Forsaken situation develops and no new murders are strictly necessary *cough*

That's a large part of the problem with the forsaken and Sylvanas. They keep desecrating the dead. THAT is what should be sticking in the craw of a lot of people. The forsaken are literally pulling people back from their deserved afterlife, cursing them with undead and ensuring that the new undead will almost never ever experience -anything- positive again.

It's like shooting someone up with a powerful drug that removes all inhibitions. The person fought to avoid it, but they were captured and shot up with the drug, then asked if they wanted it. Asking someone if they want something as horrifying as that AFTER you give it to them is wrong. The fact they were fighting to stop those who were injecting should be enough proof that they do not want it. Just like those who are killed fighting the forsaken. It's damned clear they do NOT want it. Yet too many forsaken fanboys see nothing wrong with the forsaken raising the dead of those they just killed (which is annoying as hell. 'the forsaken raising the dead, nothing wrong with that. Not evil...). Blizzard has screwed up the presentation of the forsaken very badly. There's too many inconsistencies after the starting area for how the dead are raised.

How would you like it if you were pulled back from a good afterlife to be stuffed back into your body, which is either damaged from battle and/or literally rotting to pieces. Then to find out you can't feel anything good or positive and the negative emotions are much easier to embrace. Does that sound like you could make a rational and reasoned decision? Would you not be mad as hell as the people who raised you?


Realistically though, the forsaken should be wiped out by both the Alliance, Horde, Argents and Cenarion Circle. The forsaken as they are and have been and by the actions they have willingly committed, are nothing but a 25 ton anchor around the Horde's neck.

Quote:

Giving up one small camp is not a massive loss to the Alliance, and it shows they are serious about keeping the peace. Giving a little bit even whilst you're taking a lot is a good thing to do in negotiations of this kind, where you are, hopefully, trying to forge a long lasting peace. The Revantusk fight against the Wildhammers in Cataclysm. Though by all means they're not going to be kicked out. They can keep their village and hold the coast, a port there for the Alliance would be useless, anyways. Jintha'alor? If they have the numbers to populate it, by all means, it could be crushed by the Wildhammers in short order anyways.

Alterac. Not Alterac Valley.

He needs to be slain because he has a more legitimate claim to the throne of Stromgarde than Danath. He gives the Forsaken a casus beli for future war whilst existing.
The graveyard there is the resting place of many Alliance/Lordaeron dead and Uther's tomb. The forsaken might not be able to raise him, but they could desecrate the tomb. It's one of the few sacred places to the humans of the Alliance, so it shouldn't be given to the forsaken. That would be like giving Arlington Cemetery to another nation for the chance of peace when you know that nation can raise the dead. It's giving them potential recruits and that's a bad thing.

I think the Hinterlands can be split between the Wildhammer, the Revantuck trolls and the High elves. It shouldn't be controlled by one race.

Gareth(?) lost his claim to the throne when he died. Human law is when you die, everything you own and had, including land, titles and effects, go to your next of kin. Or of you have no next of kin, it devolves to the custody of the state. This means Danath is the only living heir to the throne and among the human nations, the living -always- takes precedent over matters of ownership. You might claim otherwise, but under Stromgarde law, Gareth's claim would not be recognized because he is dead. You have to have a pulse to own anything in human lands. Especially a title.

Last edited by Kynrind; 09-09-2013 at 10:13 AM..
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