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  #26  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:09 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Games were so much better when they were made by white male RPG geeks for white male RPG geeks. Then, along came WoW, with all the nasty, horrific feminism and castrated beta male bitch defenders.

See, we could all get along if people of particular socio-political persuasions got together and made games for their audiences, instead of latching onto someone else's coattails and dragging them down. Except that'll never happen, because only certain types of people actually create stuff, while others can only twist, warp and destroy.

If you want to read a comic book or play a video game where everyone wears a standard-issue jumpsuit and refers to each other as "fellow citizen", then go ahead and make it. Otherwise shut up and leave the creators of content to do as they wish.
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  #27  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My God Ar-Grim I dunno where to even begin with that utter bullshit.

EDIT:

Okay here we go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ar-Gimilzor View Post
Games were so much better when they were made by white male RPG geeks for white male RPG geeks. Then, along came WoW, with all the nasty, horrific feminism and castrated beta male bitch defenders.

See, we could all get along if people of particular socio-political persuasions got together and made games for their audiences, instead of latching onto someone else's coattails and dragging them down. Except that'll never happen, because only certain types of people actually create stuff, while others can only twist, warp and destroy.

If you want to read a comic book or play a video game where everyone wears a standard-issue jumpsuit and refers to each other as "fellow citizen", then go ahead and make it. Otherwise shut up and leave the creators of content to do as they wish.
1. Overtly racist, provocative, no actual room for discussion.

2. Could it be because women and PoC go into the industry and because they're not on board with the culture they don't get as much influence? The implication that only white-male people create stuff is bullshit.

3. I don't think asking for a reasonably represented world is so ridiculous.
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  #28  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:22 AM
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Yeah, nearly every female character having a plate bikins is tiresome.
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  #29  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:22 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
1. Overtly racist, provocative, no actual room for discussion.

2. Could it be because women and PoC go into the industry and because they're not on board with the culture they don't get as much influence? The implication that only white-male people create stuff is bullshit.

3. I don't think asking for a reasonably represented world is so ridiculous.
1. Thank you.

2. I have yet to see an all-female development team leading the charge and creating a blockbuster, but hey, let me know if one pops up. Blizz was a little independent developer back in the day and they made it, so don't give me the "establishment bias" runaround.

3. Asking for a fantasy world to be "reasonable" (aka. politically correct) is ridiculous.
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  #30  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I admit there's an imbalance, but people fail to phrase that. I think it's safe to say that women aren't into the Incredible Hulk, but I've seen quite a few fangirls freak out over Movie Thor and Twilight Jacob.

Here's my issue regarding sexualized men, women don't have a unified idea of what they're into. I've seen and known women who fawn over Trolls, either the skinny and/or the bulky ones. I have a friend who specifically fawns over male blood elves, and iirc there are women who enjoy shirtless, lean Illidan along with pretty boy Arthas and Kalec.

Then you got those CW/UPN shows like Smallville, Supernatural, and Vampire Diaries with bulky but covered men with Supernatural specifically pushing "Winchest". Then you have GoT and Spartacus where while both men are powerful, lean, and attractive, Sparatcus is able to do so half naked with more passionate sex.

So basically I'm agreeing with you but at the same time saying that there's no universal "This is a sexy guy". Doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
I don't disagree, and frankly guys are the same. I was mostly referring to people who point to Garrosh and Illidan and just say "no shirt = sexualized." I mean shit, it might be someone's fetish, but in general terms it's not sexual. Or the ones who put a generic male character in a codpiece and go "this is what it's like for women!" when really at that point you're going for vulgar, not appeal.

And in retrospect, I think WoW player models actually do a fairly decent job of running the gamut on sexy for both genders.
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  #31  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ar-Gimilzor View Post
1. Thank you.

2. I have yet to see an all-female development team leading the charge and creating a blockbuster, but hey, let me know if one pops up. Blizz was a little independent developer back in the day and they made it, so don't give me the "establishment bias" runaround.

3. Asking for a fantasy world to be "reasonable" (aka. politically correct) is ridiculous.
1. I just don't understand people like you.

2. Partially because people don't think women will sell. It's why JK Rowling is JK rowling and not "Joanne Rowling" on her books. But I take issue with the idea that it needs to be an "All female" development team, so if any men are present it automatically means the women do no work, or that the work they do somehow doesn't matter?

3. -Why-? Why does it only have to pander to straight white guys? Why can't women, POC and LGBT people get their fantasy in the same dose? is it so damn hard to put women in realistic plate? To write them as people and not love interests or plot balls?
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  #32  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:33 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
Yeah, nearly every female character having a plate bikins is tiresome.
I get that plate bikinis are the iconic symbol, but sexualization ranges from tight armor, heels, and cleavage.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #33  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:36 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by RobLore View Post
Yeah, nearly every female character having a plate bikins is tiresome.
This doesn't even happen.

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post

3. -Why-? Why does it only have to pander to straight white guys? Why can't women, POC and LGBT people get their fantasy in the same dose? is it so damn hard to put women in realistic plate? To write them as people and not love interests or plot balls?
Because those audiences aren't as big, and some developers believe pandering to those crowds can do more harm than good.
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  #34  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:37 AM
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Because those audiences aren't as big, and some developers believe pandering to those crowds can do more harm than good.
Women are almost half, though...
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:39 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Women are almost half, though...
The stats that make women out to be half the gaming market include mobile games. Take those out and it isn't close.
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  #36  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:40 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Sometimes I think "platekini" actually looks a lot better than modest armor. Compare HOTS Tyrande with WoW Tyrande, for one example.
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  #37  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
This doesn't even happen.

Because those audiences aren't as big, and some developers believe pandering to those crowds can do more harm than good.
Perhaps they would be more interested in games if they were represented in them.

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  #38  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
1. I just don't understand people like you.

2. Partially because people don't think women will sell. It's why JK Rowling is JK rowling and not "Joanne Rowling" on her books. But I take issue with the idea that it needs to be an "All female" development team, so if any men are present it automatically means the women do no work, or that the work they do somehow doesn't matter?

3. -Why-? Why does it only have to pander to straight white guys? Why can't women, POC and LGBT people get their fantasy in the same dose? is it so damn hard to put women in realistic plate? To write them as people and not love interests or plot balls?
1. Likewise.

2. Female authors support my point. They create--whether it's a female bondage fantasy or stories about wizards--and succeed or fail based on how well they tap into their audience's interest. I personally would never touch a Twilight book, but I don't begrudge the author for creating it and demand better [insert minority interest here] representation in the series.

3. If they want the "same dose", they can go and start writing gay fantasy. See, the thing with these fringe interests is that it's never enough; you can watch floppy wieners all day on Game of Thrones or, gladiators rutting on Spartacus, or gay musicians getting it on The Tudors. In Warcraft, we have a all-female army of purple elves, but because they're skirmishers and wear chainmail bikinis they're "overly sexualized". It's never enough for you people.
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  #39  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Sometimes I think "platekini" actually looks a lot better than modest armor. Compare HOTS Tyrande with WoW Tyrande, for one example.
That's because you're comparing with a vaguely armored dress with armor-armor.

Which is more like WC3 Tyrande?
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  #40  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:45 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
That's because you're comparing with a vaguely armored dress with armor-armor.

Which is more like WC3 Tyrande?
HOTS Tyrande looks more like WC3 Tyrande to me.

The armor is still pretty revealing with cleavage and legs showing though. Maybe it has to do with how Night Elves are represented, but it just makes Tyrande look a lot better in an Amazonian way rather than trying to be modest with her hair done up and her priest robes covering everything.
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  #41  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:46 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Perhaps they would be more interested in games if they were represented in them.
And maybe they wouldn't be. I don't think men would start liking romantic comedies if they were suddenly represented better.

Men and women are different mentally and hormonally. Men are geared more towards violence. It's one reason why men like sports more.
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
This doesn't even happen.

Because those audiences aren't as big, and some developers believe pandering to those crowds can do more harm than good.
Yeah, that's a big problem. There's definitely a good chance to tap into that potential player base, but then you get people who scream when they get to play as characters who aren't like them/for purely their empowerment. And to avoid losing them/have the developers go outside their comfort zone (for good or ill) the developers stick with what they know. But that just helps reinforce the genre as one for only certain demographics, and helps alienate some of the potential writers/gamers while empowering the worse demographic's "See, we need to be catered to because having other groups makes games bad!"

I do personally think the interviewer may have gone too far- the first question on the issue actually went down pretty well, the second, maybe he could have asked it differently to not lose the goodwill. By the third I think they might well have done more harm than good.

But Browder definitely hasn't covered himself in Glory either. This isn't the first time this month that Blizzard have had to respond to comments on their female characters, and it's a pretty reccuring issue that Blizzard tends to do a pretty poor job on female characters, including some pretty egregious examples such as Aggra or Shalasyr. Again, he knows that some designs are certainly not practical, so combined with past record, it doesn't help the image of Blizzard as a company that isn't great with women.
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  #43  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ar-Gimilzor View Post
Games were so much better when they were made by white male RPG geeks for white male RPG geeks. Then, along came WoW, with all the nasty, horrific feminism and castrated beta male bitch defenders.

See, we could all get along if people of particular socio-political persuasions got together and made games for their audiences, instead of latching onto someone else's coattails and dragging them down. Except that'll never happen, because only certain types of people actually create stuff, while others can only twist, warp and destroy.

If you want to read a comic book or play a video game where everyone wears a standard-issue jumpsuit and refers to each other as "fellow citizen", then go ahead and make it. Otherwise shut up and leave the creators of content to do as they wish.
Are you kidding me. You think World of Warcraft was a feminist game?
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  #44  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:52 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Are you kidding me. You think World of Warcraft was a feminist game?
Anything in which an underrepresented group has something vaguely resembling the actual demographics of the world is typically seen as having something that is overwhelmed by that no-longer-underrepresented group. It's just how people are used to seeing things.

Of course, I thought Ar was being facetious at first, though I suppose I gave him too much credit.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #45  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:55 AM
Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Gimilzor is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
Are you kidding me. You think World of Warcraft was a feminist game?
Not at all, just that there are feminists demanding stuff like getting rid of mail bikinis. I'm not a fan of Tyrande being a push-over either because it goes against her previous characterization, but touch the amazon warrior look and I'm not happy.
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  #46  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:57 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I don't disagree, and frankly guys are the same. I was mostly referring to people who point to Garrosh and Illidan and just say "no shirt = sexualized." I mean shit, it might be someone's fetish, but in general terms it's not sexual. Or the ones who put a generic male character in a codpiece and go "this is what it's like for women!" when really at that point you're going for vulgar, not appeal.

And in retrospect, I think WoW player models actually do a fairly decent job of running the gamut on sexy for both genders.
Garrosh I understand, but Illidan has that Jacob Twilight look. Thrall also has that Kevin Sorbo (Hercules show) look as well. I get what you mean about the codpiece, but there's a fine line between appeal and vulgar that also affects women.

Just thought of another example of women not having a unified attraction towards men, WrAnduin. Neither of those two are macho and women (and men) fawn over them, just not in a hetero way.

Funny thing about male and female models in WoW, there's almost universal agreement that female models are better. Whether you're a man, woman, straight, lesbian, bi, or even a gay man, people just like looking and playing women more than men.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #47  
Old 11-23-2013, 10:59 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Honestly though, I think LoL has a problem with female diversity. They all look the same to me. They have a real problem with diversity. HotS looks fine so far. I think Blizzard has a broad cast of characters to choose from, and they should continue doing what they are doing.

Don't bow down to the puritanical feminists who scream over any skin. Just put out a broad product so that anyone who is interesting in the game can find something that they enjoy.
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  #48  
Old 11-23-2013, 11:00 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Ar-Gimilzor View Post
1. Likewise.

2. Female authors support my point. They create--whether it's a female bondage fantasy or stories about wizards--and succeed or fail based on how well they tap into their audience's interest. I personally would never touch a Twilight book, but I don't begrudge the author for creating it and demand better [insert minority interest here] representation in the series.

3. If they want the "same dose", they can go and start writing gay fantasy. See, the thing with these fringe interests is that it's never enough; you can watch floppy wieners all day on Game of Thrones or, gladiators rutting on Spartacus, or gay musicians getting it on The Tudors. In Warcraft, we have a all-female army of purple elves, but because they're skirmishers and wear chainmail bikinis they're "overly sexualized". It's never enough for you people.
1. So why is that?

2. I'm confused. You claim that "An all female team" has never made a AAA game, I point out that this is partially because women aren't often treated well by the industry, I then point out that just because an entire team might not be female, doesn't mean they do no work or that they somehow matter less than their male coworkers.

You then say "Female authors support your point" and use two awful books to try and... are you trying to imply that a work should be exempt from criticism if the critic isn't part of the audience it's aimed at regardless of the accuracy of the critique?

3. I don't understand you. None of these things are marketed "Just for gay people" or "Just for white straight people", girl gamers and PoC are just as much a part of the community as anyone else. I don't understand how you can think having the night elves be spun as badass amazon warriors but then hop in place with jigglephysics should be exempt from criticism.
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  #49  
Old 11-23-2013, 11:03 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I don't understand how you can think having the night elves be spun as badass amazon warriors but then hop in place with jigglephysics should be exempt from criticism.
Part of Warcraft's appeal is that it doesn't take itself seriously. The Night Elves can be badass amazons and still have the bounce.
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Old 11-23-2013, 11:05 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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