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  #1  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:13 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Default An open letter to you guys...

Guys.

I like you. Well, most of you. All but two or three really. However, there is something that has become really annoying over the past few weeks and I'd like to address it:

Negativity.

Now, I'll be the last person to say that you shouldn't be negative. I do a review blog, fer crying out loud. I respect well thought out negative opinions. However, lately, it has become all you guys talk about. And it's not even well thought out. It's "blizzard sucks". The predict a storyline thread has become "blizzard will do a bad story". The warlords of Draenor thread has become "blizzard will screw over my faction". Hell, even outside warcraft discussions, people are doing posts that solely consist of "blizz writing sucks, lol".

I know I'm not alone in that I honestly like talking about warcraft lore. The implications of the building style of the trappers in Grizzly Hills. The differences and redeemability of the centaur tribes. Speculation which groups of mogu joined in the pact with the zandalari, and which were loyal to Xin the Weaponmaster. Which type of sword originated from which human kingdom. Whether or not sporebats and nether rays are related.

However, when I go to the lore forum, I find myself unable to do such a discussion because it has been taken over. There is no discussion of the lore. No addressing of minutiae of the setting. No arguing over clever little things in the background. Instead, the only thing that's being discussed is negativity: 'What has blizzard done wrong?' 'What should blizzard do instead?' or, the always classic 'blizzard writing sucks!'

Now of course, I don't want to say that saying any of those things should be banned. Allowing people of varied insights and opinions to talk is one of the most important strengths of a forum, after all. However, it has gotten to the point where the over-expression of a few select points has overtaken the ability for any other opinions to be discussed or new subjects to be addressed.

So, I have a friendly request. If you make a post that decries blizzard's storytelling, or bring up a widely discussed point, or express a loud negative opinion, please take a look at the topic. Are you actually adding to the discussion? Or are you just making another thread about negativity?

I hope you don't take this as an insult. I just like talking about lore, and am afraid that this forum turning into an echo chamber will prevent that.

Yours kindly,

Ramses IJff.
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we don't have much information at the moment. As soon as more information flows in there will be more to talk about. The faction conflict has been particularly toxic to discussions about the lore. I hope the end of the war in Warcraft helps remedy that.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:21 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Which is absolutely hilarious for you to make a thread like this when I used to have a rather sparkly opinion of the Gilneas starting zone, then I read your review and I was like "Oh..."
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:23 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Man, people are quick with adding tags.

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Which is absolutely hilarious for you to make a thread like this when I used to have a rather sparkly opinion of the Gilneas starting zone, then I read your review and I was like "Oh..."
As I said, there's nothing against holding or expressing negative opinions (lord knows I'd be jailed in a second if that was ever the case). My problem lies solely with the repeated statements in every thread about those same opinions.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:32 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Man, people are quick with adding tags.



As I said, there's nothing against holding or expressing negative opinions (lord knows I'd be jailed in a second if that was ever the case). My problem lies solely with the repeated statements in every thread about those same opinions.
I'll admit, I used to be a pretty positive person. In fact, I bet that's the case with a lot of members here. They used to be starry eyed and very liking towards Blizzard's work, but nowadays it simply isn't like that anymore.

I used to talk against other people constantly railing against the story and telling them that it's not so bad and that Blizzard does care. I used to even defend the whole High King shit and other things like A Little Patience. 5.3 started making me more skeptical since the Alliance experience of that just felt so halfhearted. Then the UVG happened as well as most of the crappy answers we're given on Twitter, so I stopped being positive after that.

I'm sure things would be a lot better if we were actually given something, anything, that actually shows Blizzard improving on their storytelling. That they're actually serious about making more races badass and worth being proud of playing, instead of just making jokes out of them. They should own up more to the promises they make, and if they can't they shouldn't make them to begin with.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:40 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I just roll with what we get. Both sides. The only thing that would piss me off would be Sylvanas death because it wont solve anything.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:46 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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  #8  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:47 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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It's funny, I'm usually a very negative person. I've wondered on more than one occasion if I have depression. But with Warcraft I find myself being positive more often than not. Maybe it's a subconscious way to counter the negativity of everyone else, I don't know. I just don't hate it.

There are certainly things about Warcraft I dislike or don't care for, but not so much that it destroys my enjoyment of what I do like. And I do like far more things than I don't.

Like Genya said, I just roll with what we get.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:55 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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If Blizzard could actually make a good decision I'm sure we'd all expound on it.

But as of right now there's nothing to speak well of.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:55 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Blizzard deserves praise for the little things, but I don't see why we should be praising the little things when there are so many huge things that desperately need fixing.
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  #11  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:56 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I'm sure things would be a lot better if we were actually given something, anything, that actually shows Blizzard improving on their storytelling. That they're actually serious about making more races badass and worth being proud of playing, instead of just making jokes out of them. They should own up more to the promises they make, and if they can't they shouldn't make them to begin with.
This is veering off-topic a bit (actual discussion regarding story quality, rather than a simple request), but I will respond anyway: They have already started with that. The blood elves got a great screentime in 5.2, both factions got great portrayals in overall fighting force in 5.1, writing in Pandaria was massively improved over the previous expansions, lore integration in raids was expanded massively, the minor factions of the continent were all expertly developed, etc.

5.3 and 5.4 were pretty mediocre at best, terrible at worst. However, most of that was due to remaining issues from cataclysm (addressing all the war problems) and the weird decision to shift patch-making resources way too early. However, overall, this expansion has seen improvements in story-telling.

I think most of the issues stem less with "this story is bad", and more with "This story was great, but why didn't it enhance the race I wanted it to?" We're in the weird situation where the blood elves and the high elves have finally gotten great development, and people start complaining that "it's too much". Isn't that a silly statement? "Oh no, one of our races has gotten too much good development!"

It's because people want to see their own favorite races get that focus. However, the community has become so focused on mistakes that they don't see the focus as "oh sweet, blizz can do it right. Looking forward to the next race that gets that focus" but as "Damn it blizzard, another race should have been developed instead. Preferably one I liked better".


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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
If Blizzard could actually make a good decision I'm sure we'd all expound on it.

But as of right now there's nothing to speak well of.
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Blizzard deserves praise for the little things, but I don't see why we should be praising the little things when there are so many huge things that desperately need fixing.
I'm not asking for praise. I'm asking that not every thread gets turned into complaints. You don't have to say positive things, just not turn every thread into a focus on the negative.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:59 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I feel we should ban everyone who's negative in threads that aren't [Volatile]. That'll teach 'em! Whiners gotta stop.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post


I'm not asking for praise. I'm asking that not every thread gets turned into complaints. You don't have to say positive things, just not turn every thread into a focus on the negative.
If we're not complimenting and not criticizing what are we supposed to say?
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:08 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
If we're not complimenting and not criticizing what are we supposed to say?
Discuss the actual lore. There is more to talk about than opinions. Speculate what will happen. Draw conclusions based on things in the game.

I mentioned several topics in my opening post. None of those have any requirement to add opinion to the subject. Most lore discussions don't.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:10 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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To be fair, it's easy to make races like Blood Elves compelling. They're not part of the Captain America faction that has a rigid lawful good structure, and can thus be allowed to fully explore all of their themes that help flesh them out as a race. Same deal with Goblins, they're not bogged down by Lore decisions that are impossible to salvage. I say Goblins because, like Worgen, they were a race that debuted in the same expansion, and holy hell did they come off smelling more like roses than the Worgen could have ever hoped to be.

I'll have to see how WoD handles a neglected race like the Draenei before I become positive about an Alliance race being handled to its best abilities, but I really don't care much for the Draenei to be positive either way. It's probably going to lead fans to thinking Draenei are a much more fulfilling and useful race than the Worgen, which I'm pretty 'meh' about but again we're going to have to see how that pans out.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:14 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Discuss the actual lore. There is more to talk about than opinions. Speculate what will happen. Draw conclusions based on things in the game.

I mentioned several topics in my opening post. None of those have any requirement to add opinion to the subject. Most lore discussions don't.
If the Zelda fandom can manage theorizing and story discussion without constantly shitting on the most recent game (only to glorify it once a newer game comes out, as that fandom tends to do), then I like to think that we can handle it.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:17 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Discuss the actual lore. There is more to talk about than opinions. Speculate what will happen. Draw conclusions based on things in the game.

I mentioned several topics in my opening post. None of those have any requirement to add opinion to the subject. Most lore discussions don't.
That becomes "What should Blizz have done" which is offlimits
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:20 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Ok, time for the serious answer as to why so much negativity is shown.

The Alliance is only getting terrible lore lately. The Horde is a bunch of imbeciles brutes. Every bit of lore we get is somehow tied to one faction or both if we are lucky bastards. How can we be optimistic with that kind of attitude in the story?
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:23 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
If the Zelda fandom can manage theorizing and story discussion without constantly shitting on the most recent game (only to glorify it once a newer game comes out, as that fandom tends to do), then I like to think that we can handle it.
Zelda game plots haven't been MOP bad, true there's rarely major story connections between the games, but the self contained stories are always enjoyable.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:26 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I don't really even think MoP was good, I found the neutral panda stuff boring and the faction stuff full of the usual missed opportunities. Alliance story wasted on Jaina being a bigot just so the Blood Elves can look better by comparison, and the High King story ending up as more of a test run for the devs to be aware of what Alliance players like. (Which is 'yay' I guess? Maybe they get the picture now? Although I doubt it if they seriously thought the way to handle the whole High King story was a good idea to begin with.)
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:26 PM
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Good stuff ijffdrie.

Communities of pessimism aren't fun to be in so I need to catch myself more when I am about to say something that is cheap or needlessly negative or doesn't add anything of worth to the discussion. Mad, bad or sad attitudes = not fun if you just want to hang out and talk lore. I like that idea of dreamy-eyed scribes bringing up topics just because they're interesting and want to talk about with people. So yeah let's do that with peace and lore for everyone this Christmas
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:27 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
Good stuff ijffdrie.

Communities of pessimism aren't fun to be in so I need to catch myself more when I am about to say something that is cheap or needlessly negative or doesn't add anything of worth to the discussion. Mad, bad or sad = not fun if you just want to hang out and talk lore. I like that idea of dreamy-eyed scribes bringing up topics just because they're interesting and want to talk about with people. So yeah let's do that with peace and lore for everyone this Christmas
Thanks Santa!

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Old 12-20-2013, 09:30 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I don't really even think MoP was good, I found the neutral panda stuff boring and the faction stuff full of the usual missed opportunities. Alliance story wasted on Jaina being a bigot just so the Blood Elves can look better by comparison, and the High King story ending up as more of a test run for the devs to be aware of what Alliance players like. (Which is 'yay' I guess? Maybe they get the picture now? Although I doubt it if they seriously thought the way to handle the whole High King story was a good idea to begin with.)
It wasn't any better for the Horde.

Once again, everyone lost in Mists of Pandaria.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:31 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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It wasn't any better for the Horde.

Once again, everyone lost in Mists of Pandaria.
I don't think that's really the problem. It's mostly that the Alliance lost in Cata and the Horde won. So it was really important for the Alliance to be having a good time in Mists.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:33 PM
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I'm getting tired of people complaining about racial diversity in the Alliance and the instant clenching of butts whenever a human is mentioned.
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