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Old 06-15-2015, 05:55 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Default Demons and transcending realities.

So in the last few days, we've learned that the Twisting Nether stands outstide of realities, the blurr between existence and void. They're kinda like the Faeries in Lorwynn; demons are not affected by the changing of reality. Beelzebub the imp on MU Azeroth is the same person in AU Draenor. Demons are only killable in the Twisting Nether, and if killed elsewhere, they will return there to regenerate.

Does MU Draenor, aka Outland, count as the Nether? When I fly from Hellfire to the Netherstorm, I cross the Twisting Nether region. Will all demons we killed on Draenor return at some point, or is Outland so close/inside the Nether to ensure their permanent death? Should we be worried that Illidan, Leotheras and Magtheridon will be returning soon?

Lastly, does this mean that the Archimonde we're about to face in Hellfire Citadel in 6.2 has intimate knowledge of his defeat at Mt.Hyjal?

What of the bronze dragons? How do demons in the Caverns of Time work?
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:33 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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What's the source that they can be killed in the Twisting Nether?
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:06 PM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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What's the source that they can be killed in the Twisting Nether?
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:20 PM
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@Verdande: Your first and third question depend on how time works in the TN. If time is meaningless in the TN, Archi should have knowledge about Hyjal, and Outland can't be in the TN because Kazzak should be perma-dead. If time works just like in other places, we might be killing Archi before he even gets to fight us at Hyjal.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:41 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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There is some sort of time at work in the TN since, depending on the demon, it takes time for them to regenerate themselves before they can cross over back into whatever planet they were at. Once Archie died at the tree, the Scourge didn't attempt to resummon him again or try to contact him again. Or try to summon Sargy since Blizzard says that he is still regenerating in the TN.

Mal'Ganis was "killed" during the Third War and didn't pop back up again until Wrath. And Blizzard hasn't stated whether or not he was active between the time of his death and when he took over the body of the SC Admiral.

As for Outland, we get told that it's in the TN (main reason why the demons are able to more freely move about including the more powerful ones) but then you have the loopholes of Kazzak. So it might be a 50/50 thing like Oma has talked about.

But again, it's Blizzard. If they think it will be for a cool story then they will change the lore to suit it.
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@Verdande: Your first and third question depend on how time works in the TN. If time is meaningless in the TN, Archi should have knowledge about Hyjal, and Outland can't be in the TN because Kazzak should be perma-dead. If time works just like in other places, we might be killing Archi before he even gets to fight us at Hyjal.
Then again, Blizzard has told us several times that what happens in the AU stays in the AU and doesn't have any effect on the MU unless the AU spills over in the invasion.

So if we kill Archie in the AU/TN, it won't erase him from our timeline/universe. That's a bag of retcon/lore horrors that Blizzard seems to not want to open.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:43 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I read that tweet as "Buy Warcraft: Chronicle: Volume 1, in stores November 2015!".
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:15 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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I don't think Outland is even 50% in the Twisting Nether. Since Outland is connected to Azeroth via the Dark Portal, if the Legion had free access to Outland that's as good as having free access to Azeroth. Kil'jaeden wouldn't need any Sunwell to summon him, and they would simply overwhelm Outland with numbers and then proceed to Azeroth via the Dark Portal. But what we actually observe is that the Legion needs the dimensional gates to even get reinforcements into Outland from the Nether.

Also, if Outland is in the Nether, Kil'jaeden would have given Illidan the Ner'zhul treatment, instead of issuing threats.

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Old 06-16-2015, 02:26 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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In Warhammer terms, when a demon is killed it goes back to the Twisting Nether (the warp), and the TN (the warp) is connected to all realities. Did I get it right?

But why would Mannoroth get a reset memory and do the same thing twice that failed ie: giving demon blood to the orcs when the scourge was more effective at wiping out kingdoms.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:56 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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But why would Mannoroth get a reset memory and do the same thing twice that failed ie: giving demon blood to the orcs when the scourge was more effective at wiping out kingdoms.
Kinda like history just keeps repeating itself.... now isn't that interesting....
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:01 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Kinda like history just keeps repeating itself.... now isn't that interesting....
On the other hand, it might just be a case of him doing the exact same thing in every universe at the same time, unless blades of grass force a change. In that case, he isn't repeatedly using the same failing plans. He can't know that they'll fail because, unlike our characters, he doesn't know what the future entails.

This is why they need to clarify how time works for demons.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:13 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Another version could be that demons, being from the chaotic world of the Twisting Nether, aren't even aware of the anomaly.
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Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2015, 03:21 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
On the other hand, it might just be a case of him doing the exact same thing in every universe at the same time, unless blades of grass force a change. In that case, he isn't repeatedly using the same failing plans. He can't know that they'll fail because, unlike our characters, he doesn't know what the future entails.

This is why they need to clarify how time works for demons.
Which raises more questions then answers since that would imply that all of the universes/timelines are in sync with each other, but as we got with WoD, that's not the case, and since Archie is suppose to be the same one, wouldn't that lend evidence to the idea that the TN is outside of time?

Yes, but that would require some kind of sympiosis or collective type of soul if it's happening at the same time.

Didn't Blizz say that Archie has the knowledge from the MU?
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:14 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Which raises more questions then answers since that would imply that all of the universes/timelines are in sync with each other, but as we got with WoD, that's not the case, and since Archie is suppose to be the same one, wouldn't that lend evidence to the idea that the TN is outside of time?

Yes, but that would require some kind of sympiosis or collective type of soul if it's happening at the same time.

Didn't Blizz say that Archie has the knowledge from the MU?
They could (still) be synced for anyone who doesn't use a time travel device like our portal. They could only be synced for demons. Blizzard has explaining to do.

They said that he learned new moves, but that was just the encounter description, so it doesn't have to be a lore statement.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:52 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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They could (still) be synced for anyone who doesn't use a time travel device like our portal. They could only be synced for demons. Blizzard has explaining to do.

They said that he learned new moves, but that was just the encounter description, so it doesn't have to be a lore statement.
Blizzard has explaining to do.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:30 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Which raises more questions then answers since that would imply that all of the universes/timelines are in sync with each other, but as we got with WoD, that's not the case, and since Archie is suppose to be the same one, wouldn't that lend evidence to the idea that the TN is outside of time?

Yes, but that would require some kind of sympiosis or collective type of soul if it's happening at the same time.

Didn't Blizz say that Archie has the knowledge from the MU?
That's one of the issue with the trans-universe TN and Demons... if there is an infinite number of timelines, how is every demon playing its part in those timelines' fates at the same time? Are demon-bodies merely vessels for souls that always stay in the Nether?

And more importantly... what will happen with all the timelines if a demon is perma-killed? How can we prevent time from unraveling?
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:52 AM
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Blizzard has explaining to do.
That is assuming Blizzard can explain it.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:09 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Behold, the great and mysterious TN! The only realm through which demons can pass uninhibited, but also the only realm in which they can truly be killed!


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Old 06-16-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Blizzard has explaining to do.
It's magic! They don't have to explain anything!
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:10 AM
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Didn't Blizz say that Archie has the knowledge from the MU?
Yea, they said that WoD Arch has knowledge Hyjal Arch didn't have. WoD Arch is Hyjal Arch resurrected and sent back in time.
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Wait. There is only one Sargeras.


How many Medivhs can Sargeras possess at the same time? Is the reason we never see Sargeras now, because he's possessing some other proto-Medivh (Aegwynn's egg that will become Medivh), and thus he'll be preoccupied for the next 800 or so years?
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:48 AM
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Sargeras is great at multitasking. Wait... all demons were female all along!
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Old 06-18-2015, 06:03 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Wait. There is only one Sargeras.


How many Medivhs can Sargeras possess at the same time? Is the reason we never see Sargeras now, because he's possessing some other proto-Medivh (Aegwynn's egg that will become Medivh), and thus he'll be preoccupied for the next 800 or so years?
/shrug

Blizzard hasn't explained how the demon soul works across multiple universes. because otherwise, if you wanted to stop the BL, you just trap the Big Three in one of these universes and if they can't return to the TN to jump to another universe, you would have effectivly "killed" or stalled them from doing much in another universe.

But do we even have multiple AU-Azeroths, or is there only one Azeroth, but multiple timelines? Kosak said at BlizzCon "There's something about Azeroth that is unique within the cosmology, and there's a reason that it's kind of the focus of this."
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Old 06-18-2015, 06:22 AM
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All of you acknowledging this blatant lore screwup are bad and enabling Blizzard and need to stop *grumpface*

I mean this is so deeply nonsensical, first archimonde to get to the nether becomes THE ARCHIMONDE demon? Ridiculous.

If not? Why is the nether not FULL of Archimonde's and Sargeras's?

It is so deeply terrible and broken.
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Old 06-18-2015, 06:25 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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All of you acknowledging this blatant lore screwup are bad and enabling Blizzard and need to stop *grumpface*
I'm confused. Aren't you acknowledging this blatant lore screwup as well?
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:56 AM
Aquamonkey Aquamonkey is offline

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Quote:
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Wait. There is only one Sargeras.
There isn't. None of the titans are singular across all realities.

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