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Old 06-01-2017, 05:18 PM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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The rules and army lists leaked and I'm actually quite happy with them. I especially like how Apothecaries, Standard Bearers and the like are characters separate from units.
Now I can finally use my Paladin Apothecary with normal Terminators.
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  #3352  
Old 06-04-2017, 05:30 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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So Guy Haley had a crack at trying to do his best to fix GW's latest shitty lore and by the sounds of it, he didn't do a damn bad job of it.

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The Guardsmen
Haley spends a lot of time, like the equivalent of a chapter and a half, delving into the experiences of guardsmen being sent to Ultramarian medicae facilities. I found this absolutely fascinating and a much more convincing look at a guardsman’s life away from the front than most non-Gaunt’s Ghosts BL stuff, without going full on Imperial Primer/Warhammer Community black comedy.

The guardsmen characters of Varens and Borus are lightly but decently shaded in. They’re not stock characters. There’s a fine anti-climactic scene where they manage to take down a Death Guard trooper in the trenches. All very heroic but the DG topples and falls on Borus, crushing him into the mud. Hayley goes into detail, more than a lot of authors would, I think, of how Borus’s comrades scramble to leverage a fully power armoured mutant corpse off him and the brutal PTSD that comes with it. There was something about the scene that made it stick with me over the usual 40k hyper-violence. Maybe because it felt more mundanely horrific and realistic, I dunno.

Cawl.
He doesn’t show up in person but he comes across as much more of a dangerous rogue scientist than in other background. Still not a fully fleshed out character but there’s stuff there.
He wants to break out traitor geneseed to make further primaris strains. RG refuses.
He wants to break out the abandoned geneseed of the 2nd and 11th legions. Yeah. RG refuses.
He has his own Cawlite faction now and is petitioning RG for handing complete control of Mars over to him. RG flatly refuses and thinks to himself that Cawl may become a serious problem in the near future.
He also comes across as a supremely annoying chap to work with. He picks at RG about his title, pointing out that ‘Lord Commander’ is already used by a bunch of different imperial offices and is just likely to confuse.biggrin.png

The Numarines.
Decently portrayed. I still fundamentally don’t like the idea but the book touches on some of their creative potential (as ADB mentioned, all the integrating into chapter culture stuff) and clarifies a few points. Some of them just about remember the post-heresy days of the Scouring when they were recruited from their relevant worlds (e.g. the primaris space wolf is a Fenrisian and a true laughing axe thrower, just one who hasn’t been home in 10k years and desperately seeks the brotherhood of his kin). They have all of the non-functional SM organs back but Cawl wasn’t willing to mess around with the “more idiosyncratic” features of the BA and SW geneseed.

Initially most fought as part of a host of temporary chapters collectively called the Unnumbered Sons, informally the Greyshields. These were all mixed geneseed formations - RG’s idea to encourage cross-chapter bonds and decrease the chance of grudges, Deathwatch style - but by the end of the Indomitus Crusade most of them have been hived off to form permanent new chapters or reinforce old ones.
It’s made pretty clear that inexperience was a serious problem at the start and Primaris casualties were high. They are also unused to chaos; not unaware but have less practical knowledge. Twice in the novel a normal astartes librarian has to pull them back from chaotic influence (not corruption, just spiritual despair around DG).

The main primaris character, a Captain Decimus Felix (a POC by the way, nice to note), is pretty reflective about the positives and negatives of the primaris project. He wishes for the experience and flexibility of the normal mixed weapon tactical units but accepts the benefits of better plasma tech for whole squads and the “streamlined tactical choice” that it allows. Sounds a little like an excuse for a simple-to-use army but fine, whatever.
Interestingly enough Felix is also concerned that RG appears to be favouring the primaris marines. Terms like ‘the new paradigm of astartes’ and ‘the older sort of marine’ are used. Curiously there’s actually some doubt about how RG is going about this; another primaris marine thinks that if RG wants to avoid accusations of legion-building and breaking his own rules, this isn’t how you’d go about it.

Ultramarine characters
Some UM characters appear. Uriel Ventris has a conversation with RG and is overawed. Cato Sicarius gets some shade thrown his way by the primarch due to having a big enough ego for all his titles.

Marneus Calgar, now this was interesting. Guess who’s chafing at his new status as Lord Defender. While RG is away he has to put down several terrorist/freedom fighter attacks on Macragge, a bit like in Unremembered Empire. He can’t help feel that this is pretty sorry stuff for a chapter master to do but what really rankles is that he’s not stopping it all, despite sending in the terminators. He’s afraid of failing for the first time in centuries. It’s extremely refreshing to see Calgar feel doubt.

Moreover, he’s ambivalent about RG himself. On the one hand, he is distressed that RG didn’t sweep in and fix everything. The book is very clear that everything RG has done has been limited and restricted by the usual Imperial bureaucratic inertia but Calgar was shocked that this limited his primarch. On the other hand, he’s distressed by how high-handed and autocratic RG is. In fairness, Calgar accepts that this is somewhat hypocritical cos he himself was essentially the autocrat of Macragge but it shocked him out of the idealised view of his genefather. It’s interesting humanising stuff.

Roboute Guilliman
I liked this a lot. Here’s a dude who looks around himself and hates what he sees. His internal monologues are peppered with disgust at the 40k baroque: servoskulls, cherubs, skulls everywhere, religion, what he considers hideous architecture.

Being the multitasker he is, RG has a side project of reviewing the past 10k of history and is horrified at how vague, patchy, contradictory and blatantly fabricated the imperial accounts are. In the century since the Gathering Storm he has trained up a small order of historians and pseudo-remembrancers to try and put together some sort of reasonable picture but at every step he’s stymied by the dystopian inertia of a war torn imperium. There;s even hints that the inquisition might be killing them off.

There’s a brilliant scene where he reviews some documents about imperial dating and is disgusted to see that even the calendar has degraded. There has been so much loss of knowledge and poor record keeping RE: the warp variability thing that - and this made me laugh out loud - that he cannot say with confidence if it is actually still the 41st millennium or not.biggrin.png Not too meta?

He’s pragmatic and cynical. He out and out says to his advisors that he doesn;t consider the Indomitus Crusade to have been a true success, just a desperate shoring up of the imperium, but holds a triumph because he knows it’s good vital propaganda.

He wishes he’s held his tongue about the Imperial Truth when he was awoken because as much as he hates it, he needs the wretched Ministorum to hold together. He kicks out the planetary governors of the 500 worlds and reinstalls the tetrarchs, then, in nice bit of rhetorical sleight of hand, brushes aside the shocked concerns of his mortal council by saying that if he could get over how utterly disappointing humanity is in the 41st millennium, they can get over this. Even the loyal Captain Felix notices that RG is good at manipulating his underlings preconceptions to get them to do what he wants.

And then, towards the end of the book, Hayley picks up some of the threads from ADB's Master of Mankind and delves into RG’s throneroom meeting with the Emperor. RG was obviously horrified at the physical state of his father but this isn;t what really shook him. They did commune psychically to some extent - not in words as such - and this is brilliantly described as the Emperor greeting Guilliman

“not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsman who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp. Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp.”

Chills. RG comes to that realisation that the Emperor had absolutely never loved the primarchs as sons but let them call him father and “cloaked his manipulations in love”. Guilliman realises that he was a thing to the person he thought of as a father. He is bitter. He is disillusioned. He thinks that the Emperor lied to them about chaos and the warp, practically inviting the heresy. He thinks that the Emperor gave the primarchs his own flaws, his own arrogance, and in that at least they were more his sons than he thought.
I… can’t say this necessarily squares exactly with how Master of Mankind portrayed the situation (even with its deliberate ambiguity) and the idea of not warning the primarchs about the very obviously evil stuff is not perfect… but it is one jumping off point from this discussion about the Emperor, and I think a very compelling one.

And then his personal ministorum ambassador, weeping tears of joy and awe at the sight of RG slaying a great daemon-dragon with the Emperor’s sword, babbling about feeling the presence of the Emperor, asks him a question:

“Tell me, oh lord regent, truthfully - does the Emperor love us, my lord! Do not say I am wrong!”

Guilliman thinks about the lies the Emperor told him, thinks about how he barely knows the imperium or his own men - particularly “Cawl’s blasphemous hordes” -, thinks about what has to be done… then looks the ministorum priest in the eye and lies to him that yes, the Emperor loves us all.

Around the time Gathering Storm came out, there was some good discussion around how Guilliman’s return could have been done so much better. One of the mooted ideas was having a bitter, hollow shell of a primarch come back, despise everything his father’s dream had become, yet have to force down his bile, and bitterly go about trying to hold it together.
That is not what we saw in the Gathering Storm, it’s not what we saw in the 8th ed. fluff leaks, but that’s what we got in Dark Imperium. I like this Guilliman, he’s decent grimdark.

Death Guard
Striding into battle through the mist, straight into mass gunfire, chanting their warcries and having to stifle giggles at the same time. Again, much jollyness. One is attacked by a guardsmen who yells at him to die, and grins back, burbling ‘You first!’. Some good plague-knife fighting action against the numarines too. They... don't exactly go down like punks but they're definitely not the showcase.

Nurgle’s Rot
There is an extended sequence covering the development of Nurgle’s Rot and how a host grows into a plaguebearer (not a zombie or poxwalker, the actual lesser daemon). This follows the old Liber Chaotic fluff closely and turns out to be quite poignant, given we’ve followed the infected and PTSD-afflicted guard veteran characters to this point. You can see the obvious end coming early on - a guardsmen from a plague warzone acting strangely, what could this be? - but it’s implemented in an effective and pretty weird way.

Nurgle daemons in general
They’re brilliant. They arrive into the materium in massive hollowed-out void whales crewed by daemons and the handful of mortals that have survived their stay in Nurgle’s Garden. Of course these can’t support themselves outside of the warp so these colossal rotting fleshy monsters sort of burst out and then flop onto the ground to die and unleash the plague legions.
The daemons themselves are done with such wonderful theatre. Capering and dancing about, the herald clearing his throat and giving ridiculous speeches introducing the greater daemons (seven show up, all lovingly described) like an MC introducing a festival headliner. One GUO actually rips open the voidwhale’s skin like theatre curtains, smiling and waving to his adoring hordes. He then proceeds to play a massive set of disgusting bagpipes made by some rotting thing’s stomach. Yes, really. It’s brilliant.
For the AoS followers, some maggoths appear in the hordes too.
Having said all this… we don’t really see them in battle, just this lovingly described muster. It’s weird, this part is like half a book. Maybe there’s a sequel, I dunno.

Ku’Gath Plaguefather
He emerges yelling at his daemonic brethern to shut up. He’s the one miserable daemon, utterly despondent about proving his worth to Daddy Nurgle. Hilariously and maybe a bit pointedly Mortarion muses that this actually makes him a lot more relatable than most daemons. That joke might have a bit of a razor edge… There then follows some gruesome slapstick where his cauldron gets wedged in the dead voidwhale’s jawbone and can’t quite be hauled free. I loved all this.

Qaramar
The final daemon that attacks RG is Qaramar, the great daemon-dragon of entropy, of the final moment before death. It’s built up to be Mortarion,as Psycho sais, so this guy’s appearance is bizarre but I thought he was an interesting alternative monster-boss concept to a GUO. If nothing else it’s nice to see something which is obviously not derived from the tabletop game.

Mortarion
Great portrayal, suitably complex, draws a lot from Wraight’s heresy-era work. There’s a lot of good descriptive writing about the disgusting Nurglite ecosystem of jungles and plague-ivy that’s grown up inside the battlebarge Endurance.

Mortarion himself is still bitter and a more than a bit focused on the past. After the heresy he spent a while hunting his adoptive xenos-father’s soul through the warp and has now imprisoned him on a clock as a form of torment.

His new thing is clocks, by the way. He’s been fashioning these clock-like warp devices to harness the Hand of Darkness’s power. Overall he’s showing more subtley than his legion was famed for, they’re a lot more cunning than in the great crusade. Mortarion thinks to himself how he still despises warpcraft but after a spell half-covers him in fungal blooms (it’s for a hololith type communication thing) he’s described as trembling in “ecstasy and abhorrence”. He’s no less of a tormented soul than he was.

Typhus, though, is much more willing to sass him and overall they’re very chilly with each other. Typhus calls him Mortarion to his face (not father or master), and essentially calls him Nurgle’s trophy wife or shiny bauble rather than being a worthy champion himself. Typhus rips into Mortarion for his sentimentality and considers himself the primarch’s equal or even superior as a champion of plague. Obviously Mortarion disagrees.
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  #3353  
Old 06-05-2017, 02:12 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Really not a fan of the Emperor not caring about the Primarchs. Really begs the question as to why be bothered keeping Angron around when the War Hounds (World Eaters) would have done better without him. Clearly the final battle with Horus is going to be heavily re-written.

That Dark Imperium fluff doesn't seem too bad but Cawl is still way too important for my tastes. Also not a fan of Primaris Marines being 10,000 years old. It's good that their inexperience is made relevant though.

This whole think about Guilliman being Living Regent is bull. Since when does he have authority over the Custodes? He just walks in and claims absolute power and nobody opposes him. I hope this all ends up going terribly for him.
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  #3354  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:51 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Am I the only one who wants a 40k-themed game like Empire at War? If they'd just mash together Battlefleet Gothic: Armada and Dawn of War, I'd be happy. Preferably with all the main factions (as DLC for all I care, I'd buy it). It's kinda sad how pretty much every game only includes 2 or 3.
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  #3355  
Old 07-09-2017, 04:04 PM
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New nurgle tank.
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  #3356  
Old 07-09-2017, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wabbajack View Post
The rules and army lists leaked and I'm actually quite happy with them. I especially like how Apothecaries, Standard Bearers and the like are characters separate from units.
Now I can finally use my Paladin Apothecary with normal Terminators.
What are the different units like in 40k and other tabletops?

I know in RTS's you have workers/support units, then basic infantry (Your orc grunts and dwarf riflemen), then heavier stuff (human knights, tauren), casters (priests, shaman), heroes, transports, and then usually one or two air units, but for tabletops like that do they follow a similar layout?
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:15 PM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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Every unit has a battlefield role, which in most cases indicates what kind of unit it is and is used for army list building.
The current edition has the following battlefield roles:

HQ: Mostly strong single model units, rarely strong multi-model units; often have abilities that buff other units.
Elite: Strong multi-model units or in some cases strong single-model units. Mostly well balanced and sometimes stronger variants of other units. Some elite units instead are single models with special abilities, such as medics and standard bearers.
Troops: The basic units. I believe all of them are multi-model units.
Fast Attack: Fast units, either because they actually have a high movement characteristic or because they have some mobility ability. Nearly all flyers have this role.
Heavy Support: Most tanks, multi-model units that specialize in heavy weaponry and some low- or single-model melee units.
Dedicated Transports: All units that primarily function as a transport. I believe the only other units with transport capabilities are Fast Attack or Heavy Support.
Lords of War: Super-heavy tanks, giant monstrosities, titans and some rare very strong characters.
Fortifications: Buildings, barricades, etc.

Some of this can be modified by armies. For example, Grey Knights are an "elite" army and have their Terminators as Troops, whereas other Space Marines have them as Elite.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbajack View Post
Every unit has a battlefield role, which in most cases indicates what kind of unit it is and is used for army list building.
The current edition has the following battlefield roles:

HQ: Mostly strong single model units, rarely strong multi-model units; often have abilities that buff other units.
Elite: Strong multi-model units or in some cases strong single-model units. Mostly well balanced and sometimes stronger variants of other units. Some elite units instead are single models with special abilities, such as medics and standard bearers.
Troops: The basic units. I believe all of them are multi-model units.
Fast Attack: Fast units, either because they actually have a high movement characteristic or because they have some mobility ability. Nearly all flyers have this role.
Heavy Support: Most tanks, multi-model units that specialize in heavy weaponry and some low- or single-model melee units.
Dedicated Transports: All units that primarily function as a transport. I believe the only other units with transport capabilities are Fast Attack or Heavy Support.
Lords of War: Super-heavy tanks, giant monstrosities, titans and some rare very strong characters.
Fortifications: Buildings, barricades, etc.

Some of this can be modified by armies. For example, Grey Knights are an "elite" army and have their Terminators as Troops, whereas other Space Marines have them as Elite.
Excellent, thank you.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:15 PM
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New nurgle tank.
Plagueburst... should have gone with Squeamin' Puss.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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  #3360  
Old 07-16-2017, 04:43 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Meh.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:59 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Seriously though, Mortarion and the rest of the Death Guard when?
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:29 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Seriously though, Mortarion and the rest of the Death Guard when?
Probably September or late August. I'm guessing GW wanted to shift the Primaris whilst all the kids are on holiday and the Summer Campaign is running.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:57 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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The Easy To Build Reivers look far better. (It's the fact that they actually wear helmets.)
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
I managed to get a glimpse at the fluff section from 8th Edition and here's what I managed to glean from it. Apologies if the info is fragmentary.

Ultramarines:

-The 2nd Company is now commanded by Captain Acheron since Cato Sicarius was sent away to be part of Guilliman's Victrix Guard. Captain Sicarius was lost in the warp at the start of the Indomitus Crusade. (He does return in Dark Imperium which is set afterwards, but he still remains with the Victrix Guard).

-The other Company Captains have all nearly not really changed and are very much alive. Captain Fabian is still commanding the 3rd, Ventris the 4th, Galenus the 5th and Numitor the 8th

-After the Plague Wars ended with Mortarion escaping, Guilliman spent some time in Ultramar leading the reconstruction, fortification and rebuilding efforts before having to leave again for other parts of the Imperium.

-The Ultramarines then go on something called the "Vengeance Campaigns" where they leave Ultramar and attempt to take back demon worlds while also handling an Ork WAAAGH. They take back 3 of the 7 demon worlds but the fate of the rest of the planets are unknown.

White Scars:

-The White Scars are badly depleted by the renewed Chaos invasions due to the rift opening but the Indomitus Crusade shows up and delivers their Primaris reinforcements, saving the Chapter.

-They then launch a vengeful campaign against the Red Corsairs, attacking and boarding a major Space Station siezed by Huron Blackheart. The Chapter Master of the White Scars, Jubal Khan, and his honor guard fight their way to the heart of the structure when its plasma reactors blow, the strike force becomes trapped in the exploding structure. The fate of the WS Chapter Master and his honour guard are unknown.

Imperial Fists:

-Seeking revenge for the attack on the Phalanx, the Imperial Fists launch an invasion of the Iron Warrior's newly fortified world of Ironhold (original). Aided by several Knight Houses, they win and defeat their arch-rivals, taking the planet for the Imperium.

Black Templars:

-When the Great Rift opened, a horde of traitor forces began targeting Imperial Shrine Worlds for destruction, led by the Word Bearers. The Black Templars commit themselves to defending these holy places from the traitor marines and several crusades are launched to drive the traitors back. The BT take heavy losses but hold the line against the enemy.

-The Black Templars are called upon to put down a rebellion on a planet. As they fight they discover that the enemy is managing to put more soldiers on the field faster than they can kill them. Realizing the planet was damned as most of its population was turning against them, the BT are forced to exterminate the entire population to put an end to the threat.

Salamanders:

-A Bloodthirster named Khar'kul leads his demonic forces into a Hive World, slaughtering anyone in his way. The Salamanders deploy in Chapter Strength and overcome this enemy with the use of massed Aggressor squads equipped with flamers.

Iron hands:

-When the Great Rift opened, Medusa came under a massive attack by the forces of Chaos. However, the Iron Hands manage to hold the line and eventually the traitors retreat from the planet, leaving behind a battered Chapter.

-The Great Rift that engulfed most of the Space around them now receded, leaving behind planets tainted by Chaos. The Iron Hands launched a brutal "Scorched Earth Crusade" that cleanses these heavily populated worlds from the taint but leaves them in ruins.

-The Iron Hands discover a possible pathway through the Great Rift, back to the other side of the Imperium that is guarded by the forces of Chaos and several renegade warbands. They launch a massive attack on this site and defeat the traitors in battle but just as they are about to reach the pathway, the renegades detonate their charges and destroy the portals. (This is starting to be a recurring theme)

-They then join something known as the Stygian Crusade along other Imperial forces where they make great gains at first but are forced to retreat under relenting pressure.
From Lady Atiah.
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:56 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Salamanders: Massive daemon incursion? Moar fire, pls.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:54 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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>leave Gulliman to me

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Old 08-11-2017, 05:23 AM
RikuEru RikuEru is offline

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Someone has already photoshopped him into Pre-Heresy Colours...

...he looks better that way, even though I don't need him.
BUT THIS CLEARS THE WAY FOR THE NEXT LOYAL PRIMARCH!
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:03 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Yeah that colour schemes looks much better than the first one.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:11 AM
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>leave Gulliman to me
As someone who's only ever been vaguely interested in the 40k universe, can you (or anyone, really) explain why it's generally seen as cool to diss the Ultramarines?
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:29 AM
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As someone who's only ever been vaguely interested in the 40k universe, can you (or anyone, really) explain why it's generally seen as cool to diss the Ultramarines?
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:50 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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As someone who's only ever been vaguely interested in the 40k universe, can you (or anyone, really) explain why it's generally seen as cool to diss the Ultramarines?
Blatant writer favoritism in favor of the Ultramarines got them quite a bit of dislike. The fact that they're the poster boys for the space marines while not having much of a character did the rest.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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At least their colour scheme isn't awful, like some other chapters'. Yellow and red doesn't really work, Crimson Fists!
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:12 PM
Wabbajack Wabbajack is offline

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Ward-hate is a meme. Nearly all the Ultramarine fluff from the SM codex he authored was from older codices, often verbatim.

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Blatant writer favoritism in favor of the Ultramarines got them quite a bit of dislike. The fact that they're the poster boys for the space marines while not having much of a character did the rest.
They're meant to be the generic space marine chapter, so they get more material, which in turn is interpreted as writer favoritism.

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Old 08-12-2017, 05:25 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Ward-hate is a meme. Nearly all the Ultramarine fluff from the SM codex he authored was from older codices, often verbatim.


They're meant to be the generic space marine chapter, so they get more material, which in turn is interpreted as writer favoritism.
The problem was that while most of the SM codex's included more Ultrasmurf lore than the rest, his book turned it into almost NOTHING BUT Ultramarines.

Also now we're going into full Ultra-mode again with Rawbutt Girlyman flying around the galaxy with his Primaris(tm) Ultra-Ultramarines saving everybody.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:54 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Blatant writer favoritism in favor of the Ultramarines got them quite a bit of dislike. The fact that they're the poster boys for the space marines while not having much of a character did the rest.
Ah, sort of a "Stop trying to tell me who to like, GW!", then? That's entirely fair.

Although I have to ask, haven't the Blood Ravens been featured just as much? Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure they've been the main Space Marine factions in all of the Dawn of War games. Are they also subject to being harped on within the fanbase?
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