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Old 01-22-2011, 01:25 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Default Is Naralex justified in regrowing the barrens?

Recently a discussion on the official story forums has piqued my interest. Some are arguing that Naralex should never have tried to regrow the barrens in the first place, positing that he's trying to change the land to suit the night elven ideal of what a land should be without regard for the native inhabitants. They'd argue that the Barrens has become a completely new ecosystem that shouldn't be meddled with.

On the other hand, the Barrens was a forest prior to the Burning Legion invading. Many members of the Cenarion Circle, even tauren (including Hamuul Runetotem) either support what the Druids of the Fang were doing or remark that the current state of the Barrens is less than optimal. Finally, a similar experiment to that of Naralex's, the Cenarion Wildlans in Desolace, went off without a hitch and was even initiated by a tauren. Therefore, is the act of regrowing the barrens wrong, or only that the outcome was unfortunately tainted by the nightmare?
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Recently a discussion on the official story forums has piqued my interest. Some are arguing that Naralex should never have tried to regrow the barrens in the first place, positing that he's trying to change the land to suit the night elven ideal of what a land should be without regard for the native inhabitants. They'd argue that the Barrens has become a completely new ecosystem that shouldn't be meddled with.

On the other hand, the Barrens was a forest prior to the Burning Legion invading. Many members of the Cenarion Circle, even tauren (including Hamuul Runetotem) either support what the Druids of the Fang were doing or remark that the current state of the Barrens is less than optimal. Finally, a similar experiment to that of Naralex's, the Cenarion Wildlans in Desolace, went off without a hitch and was even initiated by a tauren. Therefore, is the act of regrowing the barrens wrong, or only that the outcome was unfortunately tainted by the nightmare?
This includes Naralex who flat out says that he was wrong to regrow the Barrens. Although the Barrens was once a forest, that was 10,000 years ago and it has since become it's stabilized as an ecosystem supporting life not for forest flora and fauna, but savanna flora and fauna. Helping to support the current ecosystem, which is need of druidic support, is one thing, but changing the ecosystem to another is something else entirely.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:50 PM
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The question is, would he be saying that if his experiment wasn't corrupted by the nightmare?

I mean, look at the success the Cenarion Wildlands had.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:59 PM
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Well I think that guy will think he was doing the right thing if nightmare didn't get through.
Didn't Fandral once said the same thing? Even the barrens deserve their place?
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:03 PM
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This is a pretty tough question to answer, especially when you consider than just a few miles south of Naralex, the Horde and Alliance, and especially Goblins and Dwarves are nuking the shit out of the place. So it's hard for me to care. The Southern Barrens is one of the most chaotic zones in the game now.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:21 PM
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The question is, would he be saying that if his experiment wasn't corrupted by the nightmare?

I mean, look at the success the Cenarion Wildlands had.
The Cenarion Wildlands scarcely had an ecosystem. It was just scorpions, basilisks, and vultures scavenging on the corpses of the kodos who wander there to die. But look at the fauna (lions, zebra, kodos) of the Barrens and ask yourself what would likely happen to them if the Barrens became the Woodlands.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:30 PM
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It may fuck with the ecosystem but there is an entirely different good outcome I see. The main motivation of garroshes agression is lack of resourses in his peoples holding. If naralexes plan had went off without a hitch the horde may not have had to invade ashenvale just to survive.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:31 PM
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I found a more interesting question, are the Titans right to shape the planet by their own will and kill so many beings to make their ideal world?
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:32 PM
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The Cenarion Wildlands scarcely had an ecosystem. It was just scorpions, basilisks, and vultures scavenging on the corpses of the kodos who wander there to die. But look at the fauna (lions, zebra, kodos) of the Barrens and ask yourself what would likely happen to them if the Barrens became the Woodlands.
How is desolace any less of an ecosystem than the barrens? Furthermore, while the barrens has been barren since the WotA, 10,000 years isn't enough time for a species to evolve on its own. Lions, zevra, kodos... they all had to migrate TO the barrens from somewhere, so I'd imagine they'd be replaced by the forest's original inhabitants.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:41 PM
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How is desolace any less of an ecosystem than the barrens? Furthermore, while the barrens has been barren since the WotA, 10,000 years isn't enough time for a species to evolve on its own. Lions, zevra, kodos... they all had to migrate TO the barrens from somewhere, so I'd imagine they'd be replaced by the forest's original inhabitants.
Evolution does not really apply in most fantasy settings, so I doubt that such logic would apply to a world like Azeroth when talking about the fauna, especially considering the involvement of the titans. But again, what would happen to the native species of the Barrens? And where would they migrate to? The Thousand Needles is flooded, Mulgore is enclosed, Ashenvale is also a thick forest, Dustwallow is a marsh, and Durotar is a wasteland.

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It may fuck with the ecosystem but there is an entirely different good outcome I see. The main motivation of garroshes agression is lack of resourses in his peoples holding. If naralexes plan had went off without a hitch the horde may not have had to invade ashenvale just to survive.
The flooded portions of Durotar may have the same effect, so I guess we should thank Deathwing's contributions.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
How is desolace any less of an ecosystem than the barrens? Furthermore, while the barrens has been barren since the WotA, 10,000 years isn't enough time for a species to evolve on its own. Lions, zevra, kodos... they all had to migrate TO the barrens from somewhere, so I'd imagine they'd be replaced by the forest's original inhabitants.
For some species 10,000 years is more than enough to evolve on their own. Now while not quite the amounts of animals in wow that is more than enough for evolution. Take bacteria for example, or some fish and amphibians that is enough time.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:08 AM
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For a few quickly reproducing species, maybe. Of course, the barrens, being a dry and relatively water-less environment would mean that there aren't many bacteria, fish or insects living there, and therefore what species they do have would be slow-mutating megafauna which presumably migrated to the barrens after the fact.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:37 AM
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For a few quickly reproducing species, maybe. Of course, the barrens, being a dry and relatively water-less environment would mean that there aren't many bacteria, fish or insects living there, and therefore what species they do have would be slow-mutating megafauna which presumably migrated to the barrens after the fact.
Maybe from the thousand needles? or tanaris and/or silithus?
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:07 PM
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For a few quickly reproducing species, maybe. Of course, the barrens, being a dry and relatively water-less environment would mean that there aren't many bacteria, fish or insects living there, and therefore what species they do have would be slow-mutating megafauna which presumably migrated to the barrens after the fact.
Yet you still have been unable to answer what happens to the present ecosystem of flora and fauna after Naralex's venture? Would the regrown Barrens be able to continue supporting the life of the present ecosystem. If not, then these species will undoubtedly be driven to extinction given the surrounding zones.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:40 PM
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Bacteria would be in the ground in massive quantities. Given the barrens some archea too.
As for the ecosystem life would colonize there rapidly sure some of the ill suited life would die off but a new founder population would quickly settling in their niches.
Sometimes massive die off is nature too. Take for example the oxygen revolution where practically everything died.
You can take his approach both ways.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:46 PM
Euphemialibritannia Euphemialibritannia is offline

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One thing to look at when comparing the Barrens is to Desolace is the existing water sources. In the Barrens, water sources are for the most part lush oasis, while in Desolace, even riverbanks are mostly lifeless and ravaged.

So while there might be an ecosystem in desolace to an extent, the new growth in Desolace will mostly have a positive impact on the ecosystem.
However in the Barrens where the ecosystem is more complete and fleshed out, the change will have a greater(and negative) impact on the ecosystem already in place.
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:03 AM
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This includes Naralex who flat out says that he was wrong to regrow the Barrens. Although the Barrens was once a forest, that was 10,000 years ago and it has since become it's stabilized as an ecosystem supporting life not for forest flora and fauna, but savanna flora and fauna. Helping to support the current ecosystem, which is need of druidic support, is one thing, but changing the ecosystem to another is something else entirely.
Now, I could swear that the Tauren Druid right next Naralex was basically saying that what Naralex was doing was good, but his spirit was defeated. Which leads to him keeping some of his ideas to himself on how to help contain and fix the overgrowth.
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
This includes Naralex who flat out says that he was wrong to regrow the Barrens. Although the Barrens was once a forest, that was 10,000 years ago and it has since become it's stabilized as an ecosystem supporting life not for forest flora and fauna, but savanna flora and fauna. Helping to support the current ecosystem, which is need of druidic support, is one thing, but changing the ecosystem to another is something else entirely.
He is more blaming himself for allowing the corruption to occur more than saying he shouldn't have tried to regrow it. It's not like what he was doing would of regrown the entire Barrens anyway.
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:13 AM
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Now, I could swear that the Tauren Druid right next Naralex was basically saying that what Naralex was doing was good, but his spirit was defeated. Which leads to him keeping some of his ideas to himself on how to help contain and fix the overgrowth.
Naralex may have honorable intentions, but that does not preclude his goals having negative consequences on a stable ecosystem. I could see him trying to change a grassland savanna to a woodland savanna, but this is assuming that the Barrens degraded from a woodland savanna in recent times. But wanting to turn the Barrens into a lush (sub)tropical forest as it was 10,000 years ago, is too far of a stretch. No sane environmentalist or conservationist would support retroactively terraforming a region to how it was 10,000 years ago with little regard to the native flora and fauna.
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:47 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Naralex may have honorable intentions, but that does not preclude his goals having negative consequences on a stable ecosystem. I could see him trying to change a grassland savanna to a woodland savanna, but this is assuming that the Barrens degraded from a woodland savanna in recent times. But wanting to turn the Barrens into a lush (sub)tropical forest as it was 10,000 years ago, is too far of a stretch. No sane environmentalist or conservationist would support retroactively terraforming a region to how it was 10,000 years ago with little regard to the native flora and fauna.
Yet it seemed to be doing fine if it were not for the intervention of the Nightmare. He even had tauren druids supporting him.
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Old 01-28-2011, 03:15 AM
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Yet it seemed to be doing fine if it were not for the intervention of the Nightmare. He even had tauren druids supporting him.
What do you mean it was doing fine if not for the intervention of the Nightmare? We have never seen what the Barrens looked like when Naralex began or pre-Nightmare intervention.
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Old 01-28-2011, 07:04 AM
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If the Barrens became a forest again then the Orcs would have more lumber to cut down, meaning they'd be less inclined to hack down the Night Elves sacred forests. From a purely selfish point of view you can see why the Druids want to do it, in particular why a Night Elf Druid, even if neutrally aligned would spearhead an attempt.

Would it be right? Probably not, but the intentions in my opinion were never to do good by the wild life.
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Old 01-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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What do you mean it was doing fine if not for the intervention of the Nightmare? We have never seen what the Barrens looked like when Naralex began or pre-Nightmare intervention.
I'll admit, Its mostly speculation, however if it were not showing prominent signs of working before the Nightmare kicked in, the tauren druids would not have supported him.
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:50 PM
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What do you mean it was doing fine if not for the intervention of the Nightmare? We have never seen what the Barrens looked like when Naralex began or pre-Nightmare intervention.
But still in the taurens and orcs eyes a more fertile land is better for them than a barren savannah.
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:57 PM
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If the Barrens became a forest again then the Orcs would have more lumber to cut down, meaning they'd be less inclined to hack down the Night Elves sacred forests. From a purely selfish point of view you can see why the Druids want to do it, in particular why a Night Elf Druid, even if neutrally aligned would spearhead an attempt.

Would it be right? Probably not, but the intentions in my opinion were never to do good by the wild life.
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But still in the taurens and orcs eyes a more fertile land is better for them than a barren savannah.
I am not arguing or doubting the pragmatic benefits of a barrens turned forest. Here's the problem: this pragmatic aspect is never mentioned. Not once. No, the only thing we have is Naralex wanting to restore the Barrens into how it was 10,000 years ago. No mention of the benefit to the Horde and Night Elf conflict. No mention of how it would help the natural resource deficit of Orgrimmar. No mention of the effect on the wildlife. Naralex wants to change the Barrens for aesthetic reasons and his conceptions of how the natural ecosystem "should be."
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