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  #1076  
Old 05-15-2014, 06:30 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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That's even more of a stretch than the slavery bit.

And I still fail how to see any of this is the fault of the Jedi.
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  #1077  
Old 05-15-2014, 06:44 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
the 3 million number never made sense,
It was made better in the EU: it was what they had at the beginning of the war, just what the Kaminoans had battleready, with reinforcements coming in when ready. Also in the EU the CIS blatantly lied about their droid's numbers and Palpatine didn't want the Republic to curbstomp them anyways.
Of course that's all moot now that the EU is gone and we're stuck with the 1,200,000 Clones that were mentioned in Attack? Nice one Disney.

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The clones were used because the Jedi had no other options (what were they going to conscript non clones and throw THEM into the grinder?)
Well... sort of. They don't have an army, so SOMEONE has to take up arms to defend the Republic. The Jedi aren't numerous enough and the Republic doesn't have an army. So let the Republic citizens fight their never-explained-why-it-was-declared war. As the guardians of truth and justice the Jedi's first reaction to the Great Army should have been to roll in en force and free those poor bastards (but as we all know from Episode 1 they don't give a shit about slavery). Other than being forced to do so the clones have zero reason to risk (and most assuredly loose) their lifes for a Republic that doesn't even has the decency to ask. Guardians of truth and justice my ass.
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  #1078  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:02 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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That's a debated part of the films. What exactly is a "unit"? Is that one clone? Is that a hundred? A thousand?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...NoSenseOfScale

Personally, I'd rather disregard the film's claim than try to boil it all down to some stupid conspiracy. It's supposed to be a galactic war. Not wag the dog.
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  #1079  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:09 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Personally, I'd rather disregard the film's claim than try to boil it all down to some stupid conspiracy.
Well, go and thank Disney for axing everything we knew down to one line of dialogue because nothing else is canon anymore. There's a reason why i'm pissed off by decisions like this and that is a prime example: we lose information. Tons and tons of precious information.

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not wag the dog.
Actually it kind of is. The entire thing was orchestrated by Palpatine who had absolutely zero intention of one side winning before the Jedi were thinned out enough to kill them off. After that he couldn't have cared less who won; he was already chancelor of the Republic and was giving the orders to the CIS leadership.
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  #1080  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:27 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Rotal View Post
Well, go and thank Disney for axing everything we knew down to one line of dialogue because nothing else is canon anymore. There's a reason why i'm pissed off by decisions like this and that is a prime example: we lose information. Tons and tons of precious information.
The thing that confirms what a "unit" is would be the novelization of the movie. Decanonizing the novel actually generates wiggle room for interpreting that line. I'd really just go with the assumption that Kamino has been producing billions of clones non-stop for a decade. Not the least bit unfeasible really. If you're a bit generous as far as the resources Kamino has.

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Actually it kind of is. The entire thing was orchestrated by Palpatine who had absolutely zero intention of one side winning before the Jedi were thinned out enough to kill them off. After that he couldn't have cared less who won; he was already chancelor of the Republic and was giving the orders to the CIS leadership.
I'd rather believe that the Sith spent a thousand years paving the way for a galactic war than them hoping that a huge bald face lie would endure long enough to kill the Jedi. The threat to the Republic would have to be real for it to fool anyone. If the threat weren't real, then the Jedi really would be asswipes, which is not at any point true of the films or TCW.
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  #1081  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
I'd really just go with the assumption that Kamino has been producing billions of clones non-stop for a decade.
I highly doubt that. I have enough problems swallowing that they have enough ressources for millions, but remember: every single clone, whether you want to call him a unit or something else, is going to live, train and eat for ten years in the same city. It's not even a matter of ressources (though that would be another problem - they have a hightened metabolism due to their rapid aging and they need tons of food because of all the physical training. You don't need to consult the EU in order to realize how much ressources would literally go down the shitter just by being there) but also of scale (no pun intended): the fishheads would have to house "billions of clones" in Tipoca City. Even if we devide them to other cloning related cities that we haven't seen - we're still talking about a planet's worth of clones that need room. On a planet where there is no room for them to go to except kaminoan island cities. Ten years are a long time for that.

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The threat to the Republic would have to be real for it to fool anyone. If the threat weren't real, then the Jedi really would be asswipes, which is not at any point true of the films or TCW.
The thread to the Republic WAS real. Palpatine didn't give a crap who won in the end; all he wanted was to kill off the Jedi, which he succeeded in, and become leader of absolutely everything. Had the war taken another turn it could totally have ended with Anakin and the 501st slaughtering the Senate. And I would not be surprised in the slightest if Clone Trooper helmets had a secret killswitch just in case.
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  #1082  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:51 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
The thing that confirms what a "unit" is would be the novelization of the movie. Decanonizing the novel actually generates wiggle room for interpreting that line. I'd really just go with the assumption that Kamino has been producing billions of clones non-stop for a decade. Not the least bit unfeasible really. If you're a bit generous as far as the resources Kamino has.



I'd rather believe that the Sith spent a thousand years paving the way for a galactic war than them hoping that a huge bald face lie would endure long enough to kill the Jedi. The threat to the Republic would have to be real for it to fool anyone. If the threat weren't real, then the Jedi really would be asswipes, which is not at any point true of the films or TCW.
Don't give Karen Traviss any credits, many of her stuff never appeared elsewhere and she already left SW. Most of the people agree the 3 million number is stupid.

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The thread to the Republic WAS real. Palpatine didn't give a crap who won in the end; all he wanted was to kill off the Jedi, which he succeeded in, and become leader of absolutely everything. Had the war taken another turn it could totally have ended with Anakin and the 501st slaughtering the Senate. And I would not be surprised in the slightest if Clone Trooper helmets had a secret killswitch just in case.
No, Palpatine made sure the Republic would win and it would turn into the Empire. He was keep trying to balance the war in his way.
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  #1083  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:56 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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I highly doubt that. I have enough problems swallowing that they have enough ressources for millions, but remember: every single clone, whether you want to call him a unit or something else, is going to live, train and eat for ten years in the same city. It's not even a matter of ressources (though that would be another problem - they have a hightened metabolism due to their rapid aging and they need tons of food because of all the physical training. You don't need to consult the EU in order to realize how much ressources would literally go down the shitter just by being there) but also of scale (no pun intended): the fishheads would have to house "billions of clones" in Tipoca City. Even if we devide them to other cloning related cities that we haven't seen - we're still talking about a planet's worth of clones that need room. On a planet where there is no room for them to go to except kaminoan island cities. Ten years are a long time for that.
They've got an entire planet to work with. Really, an entire star-system. Billions of people is easy.

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The thread to the Republic WAS real. Palpatine didn't give a crap who won in the end; all he wanted was to kill off the Jedi, which he succeeded in, and become leader of absolutely everything. Had the war taken another turn it could totally have ended with Anakin and the 501st slaughtering the Senate. And I would not be surprised in the slightest if Clone Trooper helmets had a secret killswitch just in case.
The other part of Palpatine's scheme involved gaining "emergency powers". If the war wasn't even a blip on the radar in the scheme of things, there would have been no way to justify him gaining the power he did as Chancellor.

The war would have had to be expensive (TCW has several episodes dedicated to how taxing the war was on common people as well as major galactic conglomerates). The war would have had to necessitate the participation of the Jedi (who were reluctant to participate in a war). And just for the sheer entertainment, the war would have to be REAL.

It's STAR WARS. I want a galactic war fought on a galactic scale! I want trillions of casualities and planet shattering weapons! I want to laugh insanely as the setting burns to the ground!
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  #1084  
Old 05-15-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
They've got an entire planet to work with. Really, an entire star-system. Billions of people is easy.



The other part of Palpatine's scheme involved gaining "emergency powers". If the war wasn't even a blip on the radar in the scheme of things, there would have been no way to justify him gaining the power he did as Chancellor.

The war would have had to be expensive (TCW has several episodes dedicated to how taxing the war was on common people as well as major galactic conglomerates). The war would have had to necessitate the participation of the Jedi (who were reluctant to participate in a war). And just for the sheer entertainment, the war would have to be REAL.

It's STAR WARS. I want a galactic war fought on a galactic scale! I want trillions of casualities and planet shattering weapons! I want to laugh insanely as the setting burns to the ground!
The 3 million was just Karen Traviss' nonsense, she even had a flame war with the fans and it didn't end well.

I mean she is a quite good author, but she just didn't realize that SW is not HER universe, so her work was kinda disconnected with the other authors' works, and she prefer/dislike some factions way too much.
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  #1085  
Old 05-15-2014, 10:41 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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So about the Jedi sucking in the Prequel Trilogy? Is that all just a bunch of baseless bunk because people dislike authority figures on principle? Or otherwise want the bad guys to be right somehow?

I see people saying that they want to be "gray" Jedi, probably because they want to lust after others, and not have some kind of stigma attached to them and their behavior. Is that what it boils down to?
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  #1086  
Old 05-15-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
So about the Jedi sucking in the Prequel Trilogy? Is that all just a bunch of baseless bunk because people dislike authority figures on principle? Or otherwise want the bad guys to be right somehow?

I see people saying that they want to be "gray" Jedi, probably because they want to lust after others, and not have some kind of stigma attached to them and their behavior. Is that what it boils down to?
The PT Jedi do suck, and that's because in the OT they suck as well.

You can see in OT, Obi Wan lied about Vader killed Luke's father to let Luke grow hatred upon Vader for false reason, and he still tried to get Luke to kill his father, which was exactly what the Emperor wanted Luke to do.

The PT Jedi thought love would lead into attachment so they forbid it, they thought people should have no emotion and always consider for the "greater good", and they were wrong, as we saw in the end of RotJ. Too bad many people refused to admit OT Obi Wan and Yoda were far from flawless.

PT had quite a few flaws, but it did a very good job on Jedi's stubbornness, they didn't get owned by the Sith for no reason.
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  #1087  
Old 05-15-2014, 10:59 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
So about the Jedi sucking in the Prequel Trilogy? Is that all just a bunch of baseless bunk because people dislike authority figures on principle? Or otherwise want the bad guys to be right somehow?

I see people saying that they want to be "gray" Jedi, probably because they want to lust after others, and not have some kind of stigma attached to them and their behavior. Is that what it boils down to?
The issue that arises is that the Prequel Jedi put so much emphasis on emotional suppression and avoiding attachment, then find themselves (not at all surprisingly) blindsided by the Sith manipulating those things because nobody else in the universe operates the way the Jedi do.

Their whole ethos basically ignores the way all those trillions of other living beings operate; their philosophy talks day and night about the Dark and Light Sides of the Force, what things to accept and what to reject, but neglects to account for anyone who is a focused adherent of neither side - which is most people. They were practically a branch of the Galactic Republic's government, yet deliberately and willfully denied themselves an effective understanding of half of what drives everybody else living in the Republic by rejecting it all out of hand.

It's why the return of the Sith stomped them so badly; how exactly were they expecting to see it coming when they choose to blind themselves to the parts of being a "person" that they know everyone else embraces and that their enemy will use against them?

Anger, hatred, fear, suffering; they abhor these things, while also refusing to see who's obviously benefiting the most from them. It's like all Sidious had to do to was keep most of his nasty corruption schtick among the "normals", and the Jedi would totally overlook him because anyone not swinging a lightsaber and chucking lightning bolts just plain didn't register on their collective Force-balance radar.

Honestly, even their indifference to slavery kinda fits with the whole Jedi/Sith, Light/Dark Side dynamic dealing in extremes to the point of effectively ignoring 99.9999% of the people in the galaxy. Anyone who's not a Force-sensitive "doesn't count" as much in the ol' balance of the Force, so the regular people can do whatever they want - no matter how monstrously Sith-flavored it may be - and as long as there isn't an actual Sith involved, the Jedi just stay out of it, all the while knowing that the Sith decidedly wouldn't be inclined to do so.

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  #1088  
Old 05-15-2014, 11:05 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The issue that arises is that the Prequel Jedi put so much emphasis on emotional suppression and avoiding attachment, then find themselves (not at all surprisingly) blindsided by the Sith manipulating those things because nobody else in the universe operates the way the Jedi do.

Their whole ethos basically ignores the way all those trillions of other living beings operate; their philosophy talks day and night about the Dark and Light Sides of the Force, what things to accept and what to reject, but neglect to account for anyone who is a focused adherent of neither side. They were practically a branch of the Galactic Republic's government, yet deliberately and willfully deny themselves an effective understanding of what drives everybody else living in the Republic.

It's why the return of the Sith stomped them so badly; how exactly were they expecting to see it coming when they choose to blind themselves to the parts of being a "person" that they know everyone else embraces and that their enemy will use against them?

Anger, hatred, fear, suffering; they abhor these things, while also refusing to see who's obviously benefiting the most from all four. It's like all Sidious had to do to was keep most of his nasty corruption schtick among the "normals", and the Jedi would totally overlook him because anyone not swinging a lightsaber and chucking lightning bolts just plain didn't register on their collective Force-balance radar.

Honestly, even their indifference to slavery kinda fits with the whole Jedi/Sith, Light/Dark Side dynamic dealing in extremes to the point of effectively ignoring 99.9999% of the people in the galaxy. Anyone who's not a Force-sensitive "doesn't count" as much in the ol' balance of the Force, so the regular people can do whatever they want - no matter how monstrously Sith-flavored it may be - and as long as there isn't an actual Sith involved, the Jedi just stay out of it, all the while knowing that the Sith decidedly wouldn't be inclined to do so.
Yoda sort of realizes this in the novelization of ROTS. HE realizes that the Sith adapted while the Jedi clung to the past

This other article summed it up
What do we learn about Yoda in this film that we didn't know before? Well, for one thing we learn that he is a very inflexible person, so wrapped up in his Jedi dogma that he can't see the forest for the trees. Yoda, if so perceptive you are, why notice not did you that Anakin was boinking Padmé? Obi-Wan knew; so what is your problem, O Perceptive One? He is the Chosen One, and you pay so little attention to him that you can't even tell he's chafing violently at the restrictions placed on him? Your restrictions?

Yoda trying to hold back Palpatine's lightning

In the novelization, it is made clear that Yoda, being the oldest and most respected member of the Jedi Order, has essentially made it (and its rules) in his own image over the past eight centuries. There is no debate on these rules, there is no dissent permitted, and it is quite clear that membership in the Jedi Council is contingent upon being a meekly agreeable Yoda Yes-Man, which is why Qui-Gon Jinn never made it into the club.

If Star Wars Episode 3 is a Greek tragedy, then Anakin Skywalker is not its only tragic figure. Yoda, for all his supposed wisdom, preaches the virtue of selflessness not because he believes he should help others, but because that's the Code. The Code now exists for its own sake, and over the centuries, he's forgotten why. In Episode 1, Qui-Gon Jinn would obviously like to help Anakin and his mother escape slavery on Tatooine, but it's beyond his mandate, and he's breaking the rules to save even one of them. Why is it beyond his mandate? Because the Jedi Order has no particular mandate to help people. Its only mandate is to keep the peace and uphold the Code. That's Yoda's Code, and when Anakin asks him what to do about an impending tragedy, he gives the most useless advice in history: "train yourself to let go". Thanks a lot, Yoda. I ask you how to stop a tragedy and you tell me to just smile and let it happen.

Of what use is a moral code if it does not tell you to help others? That is a question which Yoda apparently never thought to ask. Even in Episode 5, when Luke wants to go save his friends, Yoda counsels him to let them die. It is advice that Luke ignores, to his credit. Yoda is not an evil person, but he is not a caring person either. For him, morality is not about caring for others, but about simply following the rules.

The biggest problem with "blind obedience to rules" as a moral code is that the instant someone loses faith in those rules, the whole house of cards comes crashing down and they literally don't know right from wrong. In real-life this phenomenon is often referred to as "preacher's daughter syndrome", where a girl has been raised with a lifetime of strict preaching without understanding, so when she gets old enough to question authority she promptly gets herself into serious trouble. Yoda obviously never saw Anakin's fall coming, because after eight centuries of indoctrinating Jedi from infancy, he simply couldn't imagine a Jedi not having the same blind faith in the rules that he did. Love, jealousy, hate, anger are all emotions, all passions, all paths to the Dark Side, but caring and sympathy are emotions too, and Yoda threw out the baby with the bathwater.

And now we come to Yoda's plan for Luke and Leia. Some believe that Yoda was planning to go into hiding and then train Luke and Leia when they grew up, exactly as it happened. But that is a very difficult argument to make: Yoda was highly reluctant to train Luke in Episode 5, and he was extremely pessimistic about his chances of surviving an encounter with Vader or Palpatine. There is not even any real evidence that he knew the twins would be strong in the Force, since the Jedi normally do not procreate amongst themselves and it is not clear whether Force abilities are normally passed through genetics. Leia was never as strong as Luke in the Force, and she has the same lineage. It is not really possible to know what Yoda was thinking or what he knew at that moment, so all we really have is speculation.
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  #1089  
Old 05-15-2014, 11:15 PM
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Only in the end of EP III, Yoda realized Qui Gon Jinn was right.

Let's forget about TCW, it was awful...
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  #1090  
Old 05-16-2014, 03:44 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Your face is awful.

I'd assume that Yoda had at least enough pride to be broken by his underestimating of Palpatine. (or, more likely, overestimating himself, and he probably knows that.) With the Prequels in mind i think he just plain thought things were bad enough as they were and feared training another, even older guy (for what, a weeks, months tops offscreen? With the EU gone Luke's training literal consisted of a few hours with Obi-Wan on the way to Alderaan, two, maybe three days on his first visit to Dagobah and returning to see Yoda die.) would have just created another Vader.


Which reminds me: soooo Thrawn is out, but the movies remain.
Kotor is out, but TCW remains, thankfully.
However...
the Hollyday Special is technically a live action movie (for the most part). So...

Darth Bane is out... but Grampa Wookie is in?
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  #1091  
Old 05-16-2014, 03:53 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I see people saying that they want to be "gray" Jedi, probably because they want to lust after others, and not have some kind of stigma attached to them and their behavior. Is that what it boils down to?
Yes.
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  #1092  
Old 05-16-2014, 04:45 AM
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Which reminds me: soooo Thrawn is out, but the movies remain.
Kotor is out, but TCW remains, thankfully.
However...
the Hollyday Special is technically a live action movie (for the most part). So...

Darth Bane is out... but Grampa Wookie is in?
Haven't heard a solid, concrete, answer from the Lucasarts Story team on Holiday Special yet. Word on the grapevine is it's non-canon because it's not a proper movie and it's not TCW TV show; the only things, at present, that are canon.

As for Bane, he's in, thankfully, atleast according to TCW (so I'm told, haven't seen much of that clusterfuck of a show)
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  #1093  
Old 05-16-2014, 04:51 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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You're probably thinking of Cad Bane, a bounty hunter that features prominently in the show.
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  #1094  
Old 05-16-2014, 04:54 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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You're probably thinking of Cad Bane, a bounty hunter that features prominently in the show.
Negative.

Here, I found it (apparently)

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  #1095  
Old 05-16-2014, 05:00 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Negative.

Here, I found it (apparently)

Curious this is. New to me, that scene is. Yet all five seasons of the show on DVD i possess. Lost a cool scene, Onkel Rotal has. Very embarrasing.
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  #1096  
Old 05-16-2014, 05:04 AM
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That looks nothing like Bane. Also his ''armor'' was a bunch of bugs stitched to his body, not a metal samurai suit.
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  #1097  
Old 05-16-2014, 05:11 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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That looks nothing like Bane. Also his ''armor'' was a bunch of bugs stitched to his body, not a metal samurai suit.
Non-canon, he looks like this, or close to this, now.

You can send your thanks to Disney and Lucasarts.
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  #1098  
Old 05-16-2014, 05:32 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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I think they wanted to have Revan in the show, too, at some point. Wonder how that would have played out.
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  #1099  
Old 05-16-2014, 07:46 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The PT Jedi thought love would lead into attachment so they forbid it, they thought people should have no emotion and always consider for the "greater good", and they were wrong, as we saw in the end of RotJ. Too bad many people refused to admit OT Obi Wan and Yoda were far from flawless.
And we saw in RotS that love and attachment make you do crazy evil things. Frankly, I don't see how Vader killing the Emperor was any different from him cutting off Mace Windu's hand. Why is one a bad thing and the other a good thing?

Quote:
PT had quite a few flaws, but it did a very good job on Jedi's stubbornness, they didn't get owned by the Sith for no reason.
Can you give examples? Like scenes from the movies or TCW that showed these flaws? And not the novelizations and other media that strive to excuse Vader and Anakin for their rash and selfish behavior?
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Old 05-16-2014, 08:41 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Unless it's a novel by Timothy Zahn. Then Stormtrooper armor is pretty awesome without it actually contradicting the films.
Or a Dark Forces/Jedi Knight game. The armored stormtroopers can take a little more damage than the unarmored imperial officers.
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