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  #6176  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:12 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Wait, something doesn't add up... in-game, doesn't she say something like "SHIT! This is bad, the Alliance will want our heads now!", implying she wanted to prevent it from happening if it could be helped and it turns out she burns it down out of spite because... some random dying night elf was mean to her?

Is it even one person writing Sylvanas or are they passing down writing duties of major characters to interns now?

Last edited by Gortrash; 07-31-2018 at 12:18 PM..
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  #6177  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:14 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
It's not like the Horde will ever get a suitable comeuppance for once again warring on the Alliance. They've been getting breaks from the devs for awhile now.
At this point the Horde would prefer to just join the Alliance and squeeze their shapely Tauren bodies into that sweet golden justice outfit because seriously if you take your character's gameplay actions as canonical there'd be no excuse to play Horde anymore.
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  #6178  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:18 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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So...are we to assume that those catapults are somehow modified with Azerite?

'Cuz even accounting for in-game distance not being strictly canon...it really stretches the credulity of gamescale when based on the world map, those same catapults could apparently bombard Stormwind from the Badlands.
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  #6179  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:27 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
Wait, something doesn't add up... in-game, doesn't she say something like "SHIT! This is bad, the Alliance will want our heads now!", implying she wanted to prevent it from happening if it could be helped and it turns out she burns it down out of spite because... some random dying night elf was mean to her?

Is it even one person writing Sylvanas or are they passing down writing duties of major characters to interns now?
I still need to to the quests, but lots of the datamined text were changed/removed. Golden herself said months ago to not trust datamined info.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So...are we to assume that those catapults are somehow modified with Azerite?

'Cuz even accounting for in-game distance not being strictly canon...it really stretches the credulity of gamescale when based on the world map, those same catapults could apparently bombard Stormwind from the Badlands.
It's ridiculous, and it broke my immersion.

I need to rewatch the short (I'm working right now), but for now I'm handwaving the catapults were mounted on the ships.

I have the impression that one scene shows the shots being fired from the coast, thought. Can't remember the details...
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  #6180  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:34 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
Wait, something doesn't add up... in-game, doesn't she say something like "SHIT! This is bad, the Alliance will want our heads now!", implying she wanted to prevent it from happening if it could be helped and it turns out she burns it down out of spite because... some random dying night elf was mean to her?

Is it even one person writing Sylvanas or are they passing down writing duties of major characters to interns now?
My running theory at the moment was that this was Kosak's idea, he had a ton of work sunk into it before going to Hearthstone, they decided that it was too late to reverse course because that could mean not getting an expansion out on time, and the current writing staff is modifying what they can and trying to pick up the pieces.

Not that this should excuse anyone. Even if I'm right, they still lied to you, over and over again, for months.
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  #6181  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:39 PM
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While I get the "Sylvanas has always been evil" sentiment, her cruelty and ruthlessness has always had a logic to it that is seemingly absent here. She stands nothing to gain from this tactically. Hell, she stands nothing to gain from attacking the Night Elves rather than the Humans; the whole explanation for starting the war in Kalimdor makes no sense.
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  #6182  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:44 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So...are we to assume that those catapults are somehow modified with Azerite?
I'm doing the shitty quests right now. The catapults don't LOOK azeritey to me, ingame or cutscene, more like fel weapons. And the azerite i collected in one of the quests was immediately deposited in a gyrocopter. However, that DOES show us that the Horde is already enhancing their gear with it.



Could be they're using the azerite to supercharge the catapults' firing mechanism instead of the actual ammunition.
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  #6183  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:47 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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The Horde is as shady and dishonourable as her. The bright spots among the Horde have been silenced or subdued. The Horde learned nothing from Orgrimmar, and the guy that could have changed that died too soon to make any difference.

That's the tragedy of the Horde. And that's why this war is necessary.
Necessary to do what? Dissolve the Horde? Stationing occupation troops all over Kalimdor? Because that is the only satisfying way a war like this can end.
And yet, we all know this is the one thing that will not happen.
It's either going to be a no-contest finish (to borrow a wrestling term) via Old God interruption or another half-assed peace where the Alliance let's the Horde be without any further consequences.
Either way, this war will not end in any satisfying manner, and that's why this entire plot is bullshit. It's doomed to fail.
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  #6184  
Old 07-31-2018, 01:13 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Peger View Post
While I get the "Sylvanas has always been evil" sentiment, her cruelty and ruthlessness has always had a logic to it that is seemingly absent here. She stands nothing to gain from this tactically. Hell, she stands nothing to gain from attacking the Night Elves rather than the Humans; the whole explanation for starting the war in Kalimdor makes no sense.
Actually, it does. You can ask Sylvanas about it in the Undercity and she explains it to you.
Basically, since Azerite (at that point) has only been found in Silithus, the Alliance would have to ship it over to the EK. Teldrasil is their only remaining port on Kalimdor, so taking that port would cut them off from Azerite.
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  #6185  
Old 07-31-2018, 01:23 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Actually, it does. You can ask Sylvanas about it in the Undercity and she explains it to you.
Basically, since Azerite (at that point) has only been found in Silithus, the Alliance would have to ship it over to the EK. Teldrasil is their only remaining port on Kalimdor, so taking that port would cut them off from Azerite.
I find that answer vague and unconvincing.
There's literally an entire, not that small continent in between Silithus and Teldrasil. They really try to tell me the Alliance would rather ship that azerite AAAaaaaall the way up to the treefuckers instead of blowing a few rocks up and clearing a little bay? (And if they're using portals to get it to Teldrasil - why bother with Teldrasil at all? It's not like portals don't work overseas, they're not vampires.) This makes _no_ sense whatsoever even when applying Blizzard's fetish for making ingame scale canonical. At that point send out an Airship or two and take the azerite on board in Silithus. You're gonna have to fight off the Horde anyway, might as well haul some ore while you're there.

Edit: actually the longer i think about it the less sense this makes - how DOES the Alliance get their azerite through Horde-territorry? The most likely way would be to just sneak it past the Horde to the west, via sea, except... why fuck around with Teldrasil if the stuff is already on ships? Aircraft? Just load it on an airship, set sail home. Caravans? Yeah no. ... i actually didn't even question this when i was doing the Silithus "quests", i just assumed they're packing it up on the spot and sending it via portals or airships...

Last edited by Commander Rotal; 07-31-2018 at 01:27 PM..
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  #6186  
Old 07-31-2018, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Actually, it does. You can ask Sylvanas about it in the Undercity and she explains it to you.
Basically, since Azerite (at that point) has only been found in Silithus, the Alliance would have to ship it over to the EK. Teldrasil is their only remaining port on Kalimdor, so taking that port would cut them off from Azerite.
I know that's what Blizzard came up with, it just doesn't make any sense. The Alliance has multiple harbors on Kalimdor still and Teldrassil is extremely far from Silithus regardless so it's of questionable utility.
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  #6187  
Old 07-31-2018, 01:41 PM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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Finally saw Warbringers: Sylvanas...not sure if it's a knee-jerk reaction from my end but dear god! Bliz really is awful at delivering or depicting this "morally grey" content they've been constantly harping about. Despite being a die hard fan of the Blood Elf race, this is extremely discouraging for me to continue playing Horde.

I know it's too early at this point to jump to conclusions considering the story is still panning out but honestly I can't fathom why Saurfang would be the only one to renounce his loyalty to the current Horde Warchief. Baine and Lor'themar (perhaps Thalyssra as well) definitely aren't the sort to stay silent on this. They did after all rebel when Garrosh went full mental.

Not to mention, even if Sylvanas gets a redemption arc (Kerrigan keeps coming to mind here), I honestly can't justify the acts my Horde PCs have done in order to carry out the orders of the Warchief. Ideally, there needs to be some rational or strategy behind what we're doing. So far this war seems unnecessarily forced upon the Horde just to make for "awesome" storytelling in the eyes of Blizzard. I'm not expecting Game of Thrones or LoTR level content but some level of consistency regarding characters and the lore in general would be highly appreciated by this extremely disgruntled fan.

Edit:
Forgot to add. One person on the Warcraft Lore subreddit, did raise an interesting point:

Quote:
I think I understand what Blizzard is going for, but I'm not sure they hit the nail completely.

I don't believe the implication is supposed to be that Sylvanas lost her temper. I think the point is that Sylvanas realized that Delaryn was right. She thought killing Malfurion and occupying Darnassus would do it, but the elves were defeated, on their knees, and still defiant, still opposing her, and so she realized that she hadn't killed their hope and cowed them like she had planned, and so she sought a bigger show of force. Sylvanas' goal from the very beginning of the assault on the Night Elves was to kill their hope. Burning Teldrassil when you realize that everything else still hasn't done so fits in that narrative.

But it sure feels like Sylvanas losing her temper and on a whim deciding to blow up the tree.

I always believed Sylvanas was going to burn it, but I expected it to be by accident. Something like Elune's protection forming around Teldrassil so she unleashes Azerite Weapons which prove to be way too potent and destroy the tree by accident, so I'm not the least bit surprised, but I feel like they could have framed it all better.
But even this seems like wishful thinking at this point. Guess we'll just have to wait and see eventually what Blizzard has in plan for the Horde.
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  #6188  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:00 PM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
I find that answer vague and unconvincing.
There's literally an entire, not that small continent in between Silithus and Teldrasil. They really try to tell me the Alliance would rather ship that azerite AAAaaaaall the way up to the treefuckers instead of blowing a few rocks up and clearing a little bay? (And if they're using portals to get it to Teldrasil - why bother with Teldrasil at all? It's not like portals don't work overseas, they're not vampires.) This makes _no_ sense whatsoever even when applying Blizzard's fetish for making ingame scale canonical. At that point send out an Airship or two and take the azerite on board in Silithus. You're gonna have to fight off the Horde anyway, might as well haul some ore while you're there.

Edit: actually the longer i think about it the less sense this makes - how DOES the Alliance get their azerite through Horde-territorry? The most likely way would be to just sneak it past the Horde to the west, via sea, except... why fuck around with Teldrasil if the stuff is already on ships? Aircraft? Just load it on an airship, set sail home. Caravans? Yeah no. ... i actually didn't even question this when i was doing the Silithus "quests", i just assumed they're packing it up on the spot and sending it via portals or airships...
Answer: Blizzard doesn't account for Logsistics in any capacity whatsoever and haven;t for a long ass time.

It's how Cata was supposedly fought over resources. What resources and why, is anyone's guess. Because they didn't really care, they just wanted a "Why are the H and A pissing up a wall this go around?" answer to put in the Mad Gab Blank.

Anyway, the only thing I'm suprised by is people who are only now having it hammered home that Blizzard isn't able to tell a Morally Grey story when in beta they were full on going parallel AU.
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  #6189  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:14 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Sylvanas being evil is very in-character as well. And a way better story than a copout tentacle conspiracy. If we are doing war, let's do it properly.

Blizzard never hinted at there being a secret perpetrator in this atrocity. If anything, the only thing they keep saying we didn't know was the motivations behind it.

I'm now feeling more confortable with BfA's story. I'm glad Blizzard had the courage to finally expose Sylvanas' true character (which was clear as day, but people refused to see it), rather than introduce some non-sense plot twist to just keep the factions fighting.

The "morally grey" part is going to be explored not in Sylvanas, but in how the Horde will deal with her, and how the Alliance will react.
People on twitter and MMO Champion are already defending Sylvanas and saying she's not evil (I'm actually having a discussion with several people who say this is a) evidence that Sylvanas is a good person and will be redeemed, and another who argues that Sylvanas can't be considered evil, just misunderstood because she made a mistake). So it seems this debate is going to go on for awhile longer.

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  #6190  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:42 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Blizzard seems to have learned something very nice from their time with Garrosh:

The player isn't forced to follow through dishonorable actions.

All of Sylvanas' orders entail fighting other soldiers. You don't kill civilians.

The same furbolgs the Horde kills are also killed by the Alliance, because they've become too crazed for their own good.

Even when Sylvanas tells them to burn the tree down, the player doesn't take part in it. I really like that, even as a player who doesn't mind playing a ruthless conqueror (Orgrim, Blackhand, Arthas).

Now I see what Ion meant when he said that the Horde has many facets to it. In the questline you get to see the Sylvanas ruthless conqueror facet and the Saurfang honorable combatant facet. I'm looking forward to having the other Horde races' expressions come to light throughout BFA's patches.

Back then with Garrosh, the player had to follow through ALL of Garrosh's orders, both honorable actions and not-so ones. This is a major improvement.
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  #6191  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:53 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I'm looking forward to having the other Horde races' expressions come to light throughout BFA's patches.
By... standing by and letting Sylvanas theramore Darnassus? Yeah that's gonna look good on the resume.

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  #6192  
Old 07-31-2018, 04:11 PM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
The player isn't forced to follow through dishonorable actions.

All of Sylvanas' orders entail fighting other soldiers. You don't kill civilians.

Even when Sylvanas tells them to burn the tree down, the player doesn't take part in it. I really like that, even as a player who doesn't mind playing a ruthless conqueror (Orgrim, Blackhand, Arthas).

Back then with Garrosh, the player had to follow through ALL of Garrosh's orders, both honorable actions and not-so ones. This is a major improvement.
Even though we don't kill civilians directly, we do aid and abet Sylvanas in burning down the tree which I'm presuming results in a few civilian deaths as well? But yah, I agree with you that it's definitely an improvement from before.
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  #6193  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:09 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Finarfin View Post
Even though we don't kill civilians directly, we do aid and abet Sylvanas in burning down the tree which I'm presuming results in a few civilian deaths as well? But yah, I agree with you that it's definitely an improvement from before.
Delaryn says there's no one left on the tree but civilians when Sylvanas burns it down. So more than a few.
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  #6194  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So...are we to assume that those catapults are somehow modified with Azerite?

'Cuz even accounting for in-game distance not being strictly canon...it really stretches the credulity of gamescale when based on the world map, those same catapults could apparently bombard Stormwind from the Badlands.
The only way it makes sense, is if the catapults and the entire animation happens in Ruth'Theran Village, not Darkshore.
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  #6195  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:45 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #6196  
Old 07-31-2018, 06:18 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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If a video game story directly attacks the player's motivation to play that video game, and does so effectively, I think it's fair to call it ill-conceived.
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  #6197  
Old 07-31-2018, 06:51 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Some interesting things I've noticed:

-The absence of Horde members of the Cenarion Circle or Earthen Ring objecting to Teldrassil seems to be explained. Hamuul Runetotem is leading the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring in Silithus, trying to help Magni heal The Wound. I have to wonder if Sylvanas deliberately assigned the horde druids that task to keep them out of the way...



-There is sort of an explanation for why the Horde players (and maybe the other leaders) are following Sylvanas. She's basically blackmailed them. After Teldrassil is burned she tells the player character that the Alliance won't just blame her, they'll blame you personally since you were involved and so they only way for you to survive is to continue serving her or be left at the Alliance's mercy.
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  #6198  
Old 07-31-2018, 07:24 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Please explain how burning thousands of innocents without reason and igniting a faction war literally no-one but her wants all whilst being well known as shady and dishonourable amongst the founding Horde races doesn't count as "abusing your position".


Jesus Christ. We really are at the point where people are trying to claim "Liberals" are the problem...with their opinions on a videogame? Not everything in life is a political circlejerk. Go back to 4chan.
Everything in life has become a political circle jerk.
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  #6199  
Old 07-31-2018, 07:57 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Some interesting things I've noticed:

-The absence of Horde members of the Cenarion Circle or Earthen Ring objecting to Teldrassil seems to be explained. Hamuul Runetotem is leading the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring in Silithus, trying to help Magni heal The Wound. I have to wonder if Sylvanas deliberately assigned the horde druids that task to keep them out of the way...
I believe that Before the Storm insinuates as much, at the summit in Thunder Bluff. Magni arrives, and Sylvanas has a heart to heart with Baine about loyalty. She then puts the Tauren in charge of the Hordes' efforts to contribute.
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The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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Old 07-31-2018, 09:16 PM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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I've returned to ask a simple question and see if any of you fine people have a satisfying answer.
When Malfurion commanded the wisps to make a wall to halt the Horde advance, why didn't he sent them to detonate a la Archimonde against Sylvanas instead?
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