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View Poll Results: What do you consider more iconic to the Kaldorei?
The druids are more iconic than the Sentinels. 4 11.11%
They are equally iconic. 21 58.33%
The Sentinels are more iconic than the druids. 11 30.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Default Druids and Sentinels.

I usually refrain from making polls, but this particular topic has cought my attention. The question is simple. What do you consider more iconic to the Kaldorei race (as clearly, both are iconic). Or do you consider them absolutely equal? Do tell.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:18 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I usually refrain from making polls, but this particular topic has cought my attention. The question is simple. What do you consider more iconic to the Kaldorei race (as clearly, both are iconic). Or do you consider them absolutely equal? Do tell.
This is a difficult question because I dont inherently view them as different. The divide is less Druid/Sentinel and more Cenarion/Darnassian.

We know that Druids and Sentinels have been distant from each other, with it stated to be a problem Mal and Tyrande tried to fix via Wolfheart.

But Druidic allies, ala Dryads, the ghost cat in Ashenvale, ect all fall under Sentinel pervue.

I think the closest I vould get to making a call is as individuals, druids are more iconic, but as a race the sentinels are
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:03 AM
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They are equally iconic, but then again, so were orc warlocks. Sentinels and the Cult of Elune, however, are more core to night elf society.

In regards to night elves, I think that this issue is complicated by how the faction was presented in WC3. It was an empire that was fairly isolated to the rest of the world. There was largely no other political force but the Kaldorei on Kalimdor up until the Horde landed. (The tauren's Earthen Ring is about as close as it gets to unified tauren.) The night elves were the movers and shakers. Their society operated largely in unity between the Sentinels and Cenarion Circle.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:04 AM
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I voted for both as, for me, the most interesting aspect of Night Elven society is the dynamic between the more serene and "universal" Druids and the more proactive and "territorial" Sentinels, manifested in the interactions between Malfurion and Tyrande. It was even better when there was a clear gender divide as well.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:16 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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They are equally iconic, but then again, so were orc warlocks. Sentinels and the Cult of Elune, however, are more core to night elf society.
That's a good way of putting it. In the end, both groups are indeed iconic about equally (albeit I'd wager that in Reign of Chaos, Tyrande and her Sentinels were slightly more representative of the race), but when it comes to it, while I could imagine Kaldorei society mantaining its current existence if the druids disappeared tomorrow, I could not imagine the same if it happened to the Sentinels and the Cult of Elune.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:56 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
That's a good way of putting it. In the end, both groups are indeed iconic about equally (albeit I'd wager that in Reign of Chaos, Tyrande and her Sentinels were slightly more representative of the race), but when it comes to it, while I could imagine Kaldorei society mantaining its current existence if the druids disappeared tomorrow, I could not imagine the same if it happened to the Sentinels and the Cult of Elune.
I would like to incorporate relevant elements of my prior discussion with you and Terrorhoof from the "There is something fundamentally broken about Night Elves" thread here by reference.

(For clarification: I mean that seriously, respectfully, and without snark)
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:44 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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They are equally iconic, but I care more for the sentinels.

That said, PotMs, Sentinels (in WC3) and Hunters (in WOW) share quite a few similarities with druids anyway, so I'd like both groups to cooperate more than what is shown in WOW. For example, instead of the Cenarion Circle leading the fight against Ragnaros, it could have been the night elves with the aid of their Horde contacts in the Cenarion Circle (and through them the Horde players). A small but meaningful difference.

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Old 12-14-2017, 12:14 PM
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When I think of night elves my mind goes to druids first. High elves are the archer elves to me.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:06 PM
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Sentinels, druids, priestess of elune at the same level. Wardens not that relevant but cool too.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:42 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I would like to incorporate relevant elements of my prior discussion with you and Terrorhoof from the "There is something fundamentally broken about Night Elves" thread here by reference.

(For clarification: I mean that seriously, respectfully, and without snark)
Go on. I'd genuinely like to hear that.
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:21 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Go on. I'd genuinely like to hear that.
Sorry for the ambiguity. I should have said "I hereby incorporate [....] by reference", instead of "I'd like to incorporate [....] by reference".
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:14 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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Hello everyone. I'm a longtime lurker, I made an account just to join in on this elf talk.

So, I don't really separate the druids from the sentinels anymore. Without the gender divide or obligation for druid to live in the Dream from WC3, distinguishing the druids from the non-druids becomes a matter of splitting hairs. What's the difference between Elune's magic and nature magic? Where's the line between an expert herbalist/alchemist in Nighthaven and a druid?

I suppose technically my answer to your question would be that The Sentinels are "more iconic," because they are the core and face of Ashenvale society. The gates to Darnassus bear the Sentinel sigil, their boats are styled in the Sentinel's fashion, etc.

But to my understanding, nearly all night elves are preservationists who can call upon their natural allies or Elune's magic for help. Most night elves can heal whether through the Moonwells, Elune's magic, nature magic or natural remedies. Technically the Sentinels fought alongside Cenarius, not the druids, but that's because they're no less attuned to nature than the druids are.

TL;DR: the defining differences between the Sentinel army and the druids were retconned after WC3, so now a Sentinel is a druid is a druid is a Sentinel.
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
Hello everyone. I'm a longtime lurker, I made an account just to join in on this elf talk.

So, I don't really separate the druids from the sentinels anymore. Without the gender divide or obligation for druid to live in the Dream from WC3, distinguishing the druids from the non-druids becomes a matter of splitting hairs. What's the difference between Elune's magic and nature magic? Where's the line between an expert herbalist/alchemist in Nighthaven and a druid?

I suppose technically my answer to your question would be that The Sentinels are "more iconic," because they are the core and face of Ashenvale society. The gates to Darnassus bear the Sentinel sigil, their boats are styled in the Sentinel's fashion, etc.

But to my understanding, nearly all night elves are preservationists who can call upon their natural allies or Elune's magic for help. Most night elves can heal whether through the Moonwells, Elune's magic, nature magic or natural remedies. Technically the Sentinels fought alongside Cenarius, not the druids, but that's because they're no less attuned to nature than the druids are.

TL;DR: the defining differences between the Sentinel army and the druids were retconned after WC3, so now a Sentinel is a druid is a druid is a Sentinel.
The sentinels are an organization, an army of a mostly mono-ethnic nation-state. The sentinels are the armed forces of the night elf state and are almost exclusively comprised of night elves. The sentinels may have a few druids, but the majority of them are warriors and hunters. Some of them can call upon Elune's power, but they're not druids.

Druids are a class, that can be found among multiple cultures, who are overseen by the multi-ethnic Cenarion Circle. It's implied that you cannot be a "real" druid until you're approved by the Circle (hence why Gilnean nature magicians are just "harvest witches") and it's almost akin to a medical licensing body or a bar association for doctors or lawyers. Part of being a druid is using astral magic which is often associated with Elune, and all druids must master this as part f their training.

All druids use astral spells but not all of them specialize in it. Some sentinels use astral spells but most of them do not.

Does this clear it up for you?
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:24 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The sentinels are an organization, an army of a mostly mono-ethnic nation-state. The sentinels are the armed forces of the night elf state and are almost exclusively comprised of night elves. The sentinels may have a few druids, but the majority of them are warriors and hunters. Some of them can call upon Elune's power, but they're not druids.

Druids are a class, that can be found among multiple cultures, who are overseen by the multi-ethnic Cenarion Circle. It's implied that you cannot be a "real" druid until you're approved by the Circle (hence why Gilnean nature magicians are just "harvest witches") and it's almost akin to a medical licensing body or a bar association for doctors or lawyers. Part of being a druid is using astral magic which is often associated with Elune, and all druids must master this as part f their training.

All druids use astral spells but not all of them specialize in it. Some sentinels use astral spells but most of them do not.

Does this clear it up for you?
The OP is asking (and this post is answering) whether the sentinels or druidism is more iconic to the Kaldorei. The fact that other races can be druids or that the Cenarion Circle exists has no bearing on that.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:37 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The sentinels are an organization, an army of a mostly mono-ethnic nation-state. The sentinels are the armed forces of the night elf state and are almost exclusively comprised of night elves. The sentinels may have a few druids, but the majority of them are warriors and hunters. Some of them can call upon Elune's power, but they're not druids.
Right, my point was that the Sentinels do include druids.

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Druids are a class, that can be found among multiple cultures, who are overseen by the multi-ethnic Cenarion Circle. It's implied that you cannot be a "real" druid until you're approved by the Circle (hence why Gilnean nature magicians are just "harvest witches") and it's almost akin to a medical licensing body or a bar association for doctors or lawyers. Part of being a druid is using astral magic which is often associated with Elune, and all druids must master this as part f their training.
I understand the Cenarion Circle attempts to govern druidism, but there are still people who aren't recognized by the Circle that I describe as druids, like the Druids of the Fang.

For me, the defining characteristic of a druid is not inclusion in the Cenarion Circle. Most Sentinels would have many druid-like qualities, so I just don't see where we can draw a hard line between the Sentinels and the druids anymore.

Imagine your average Sentinel who worships Elune, fights alongside the animal kingdom to preserve Ashenvale, and uses nature or Elune magics for things like healing and invisibility. I wouldn't call her any less a druid than the Druids of the Fang.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:47 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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The defining characteristic of being a druid seems to be specifically interaction with the Emerald Dream. Hence ancient human practitioners of the "old ways" weren't actually true druids, ancient yaungol and tauren who learned about Nature around them from Cenarius weren't true druids, and trolls weren't druids until Gonk introduced the Darkspears to the Dream, despite how much their shadow hunters and voodoo already seemed to overlap into Nature magic.

So no, the Sentinels wouldn't be druids, because they don't protect Nature by entering and communing with the Emerald Dream, while the druids protect Nature by doing that very thing.

The biggest change I see in Sentinels between WC3 and WoW is that rather than delineated roles for archers, huntresses, hippogryph riders, etc. per the old tech tree, WoW functionally treats them like every Sentinel is basically trained and equipped to do every job in their army if necessary. They don't come across as having dedicated archers any more; every Sentinel guard comes with a bow and arrow, while night elf NPC's called "archers" tend to be armored like infantry and have glaives on their person. They come across as having dedicated cavalry either; every Sentinel can hop on a saber cat or hipppogryph and become cavalry, and night elf NPC's actually called "huntress" tend to dress and function like normal infantry when engaged. Instead of having their own equivalent for an armored footman, a squishy rifleman, a swift knight or an airborne griffon rider, they come across as having general-purpose troops who can all do any of those jobs when the situation calls for it.

Which on the one hand might seem lazy, but on the other one supposes that with ten thousand years to train them, one might very well find it useful to basically make your entire army comprised of elite Special Forces who can swap out a broad spectrum of tactical roles on command. Then again, it could also be considered grounds for their armies to not be especially good at anything, nor especially bad at anything, but merely middling at everything.

Funnily enough it was even reflected in the WoD Garrison guards. After trying each race, I determined that night elves were objectively the best NPC guard option because instead of being split between ranged guard types who attacked from a safe distance and melee guard types who'd charge enemies and get smashed, every single Lunarfall Sentinel was both, meaning they all kept their distance and peppered enemies from afar as long they could, minimizing the number of AOE casualties they incurred.

As far as the OP goes, I personally find the Sentinels and Elune stuff more "iconic" to night elves than the druids, in that Elune represents something about them that's survived everything - the Highborne and Azshara, the Sundering, and the complete revamp of their society thereafter - while the Sentinels basically embody that overhaul to their civilization that took place. Druidism was, for a lot of them, trading one magic for another (since a lot of the first druids were former mages like Moonguard), but the Sentinels are an outright expression of how they deliberately rebuilt their society in a manner that was intended to change how they saw and interacted with the rest of the world from the way they were before.

Plus at this point, even without other other mortal races dipping into the druidism pool, druidism arguably belongs to the Ancients, Wild Gods and even Green Dragonflight over even the night elves; it's practically a fundamental facet of such beings' very existence from start to finish. On the other hand, the reverence of Elune, along with the themes and aesthetic of the Sentinels (themselves informed by Elune due to Tyrande and the Sisterhood being their leaders) are far more expressively the night elves' and nobody else's.

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-15-2017 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:13 AM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The defining characteristic of being a druid seems to be specifically interaction with the Emerald Dream. Hence ancient human practitioners of the "old ways" weren't actually true druids, ancient yaungol and tauren who learned about Nature around them from Cenarius weren't true druids, and trolls weren't druids until Gonk introduced the Darkspears to the Dream, despite how much their shadow hunters and voodoo already seemed to overlap into Nature magic.

So no, the Sentinels wouldn't be druids, because they don't protect Nature by entering and communing with the Emerald Dream, while the druids protect Nature by doing that very thing.
There are many druids who never entered the Emerald Dream, namely troll, centaur and broken druids, and High Botanist Freywinn.

Separating the Sentinels from the druids is pointless to me because the elves are inherently attuned to nature in a magical way. The average night elf is more druid-like than some other druids who actually have the title.

At the very least, the question is poorly worded because "druids" are not the alternative to The Sentinels; druids are a class, like hunters and priests, that are included in The Sentinels. Therefore, to speak of The Sentinels is to speak of druids, and hunters and everyone else in their ranks. The OP could ask about Nighthaven or the Cenarion Circle instead, but that would be pointless because obviously The Sentinels are more "iconic" than those organizations.

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Old 12-15-2017, 01:41 AM
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There are many druids who never entered the Emerald Dream, namely troll, centaur and broken druids, and High Botanist Freywinn.
Not druids. They just use some nature magic. Freywinn in particular is more like an arcane botanist, akin to the other in-game High Botanist, the Nightborne Tel'arn, though Freywinn obviously hadn't altered himself to the same degree.

The rest fit with what we were told about Gilnean harvest witches way back in the Ask CDev (which, even as long as it's been, has yet to be contraindicated in-lore on this point.) Just using nature magic does not a druid make, and manipulating nature with arcane magic definitely doesn't make one a druid. Being a druid is specifically tied to the teachings of Cenarius, his followers and the stewardship of the Emerald Dream.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:45 AM
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Right, my point was that the Sentinels do include druids.
If they do, those are irregular partisan troops; a druid in the sentinel army is like saying there are Scottish Swordsmen in the British Army.



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I understand the Cenarion Circle attempts to govern druidism, but there are still people who aren't recognized by the Circle that I describe as druids, like the Druids of the Fang.
The druids of the fang were formerly part of the circle and went rogue. All members of the fang got proper druidic training as part of the circle and most quests in the wailing caverns are by "orthodox" druids checking up on them.

Quote:
For me, the defining characteristic of a druid is not inclusion in the Cenarion Circle. Most Sentinels would have many druid-like qualities, so I just don't see where we can draw a hard line between the Sentinels and the druids anymore.

Imagine your average Sentinel who worships Elune, fights alongside the animal kingdom to preserve Ashenvale, and uses nature or Elune magics for things like healing and invisibility. I wouldn't call her any less a druid than the Druids of the Fang.
As of the Chronicle, we know there are six types of magic; life, light, fel, necromancy, void and arcane. Druids typically use life and arcane magic. Your average sentinel may not use magic at all. Those who do would typically use holy and arcane magic. To my knowledge, no evidence has been shown of nature magic, including shapeshifting or the manipulation of spirit energy, as being used by members of the sentinels. Being friends with animals doesn't make you a druid.

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There are many druids who never entered the Emerald Dream, namely troll, centaur and broken druids, and High Botanist Freywinn.
To my knowledge, there is no evidence of troll druids entering the emerald dream until they approached the cenarion circle in Cataclysm. And despite fanon, there is no evidence that Freywinn is actually a druid.

The lost one druids of outland are... interesting, but they do actually have a connection to the emerald dream. They received their power from a dark arakkoa cult of Anzu, who, as we learned in the druid epic flight form questline, was a god from draenor who could enter the emerald dream on Azeroth and fuck with the druids there. There's an implied, but clear, line of continuity between the dream and lost one druids. I am also unsure where you got the idea that there are centaur druids in the game or lore; casting wrath does not make you a druid.

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Separating the Sentinels from the druids is pointless to me because the elves are inherently attuned to nature in a magical way. The average night elf is more druid-like than some other druids who actually have the title.
Night elves, if anything, are attuned to arcane magic; they were birthed from a font of arcane magic, became addicted to arcane magic and derive sustenance from pools of arcane magic. Aside from "being alive" they don't have much of a physiological connection to nature magic.

Quote:
At the very least, the question is poorly worded because "druids" are not the alternative to The Sentinels; druids are a class, like hunters and priests, that are included in The Sentinels. Therefore, to speak of The Sentinels is to speak of druids, and hunters and everyone else in their ranks. The OP could ask about Nighthaven or the Cenarion Circle instead, but that would be pointless because obviously The Sentinels are more "iconic" than those organizations.
Aside from your fallacious supposition that any individual that can cast starfall is a druid, can you point me to any druid NPCs who are clearly part of the Sentinels as an organization and have little to no ties to the Cenarion Circle?
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:12 AM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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Like I said earlier, I think the defining characteristics of druids (night elf men who live predominantly in the Emerald Dream) were retconned after Warcraft 3 so now we're just arguing over our interpretations of druidism.

In my opinion, "druidism" is derivative from Cenarius's direct teachings. The pillars of those teachings were balance, preservation and Elune. Night elves naturally embody those philosophies.

If alien species who've never walked the Dream or met the Cenarion Circle can somehow be called "druids," then there's no question in my mind the average Sentinel qualifies as well.

You cannot separate night elves from druidism.

Here's my source for centaur druids, by the way:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Druid_races#Centaur_druids

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As of the Chronicle, we know there are six types of magic; life, light, fel, necromancy, void and arcane. Druids typically use life and arcane magic. Your average sentinel may not use magic at all. Those who do would typically use holy and arcane magic. To my knowledge, no evidence has been shown of nature magic, including shapeshifting or the manipulation of spirit energy, as being used by members of the sentinels. Being friends with animals doesn't make you a druid.
To begin with, all Sentinels use Shadowmeld which is Elune's magic. In Warcraft 3 the archers used Elune's magic to defend themselves (Elune's Grace ability), while the huntresses (and the scrapped sentinel unit from beta) could communicate with animals.

I don't want to start an argument over the nature of Elune, but in my opinion Elune is one of the fundamentals underpinning druidism so Elune's magic is druidic magic.

Last edited by Shandris; 12-15-2017 at 02:28 AM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:04 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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But Elune's magic, as I see it, is just a mixture of Light, Shadow and Arcane.

Last edited by Ethenil; 12-15-2017 at 05:10 AM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:25 AM
Shandris Shandris is offline

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But Elune's magic, as I see it, is just a mixture of Light, Shadow and Arcane.
But it's not just a mixture of anything, because Tyrande calls upon Elune's magic through simple prayer and non-followers can't access her power by just throwing some other schools together.
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:49 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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But it's not just a mixture of anything, because Tyrande calls upon Elune's magic through simple prayer and non-followers can't access her power by just throwing some other schools together.
I don't understand what you mean.

My theory is that Elune's power is Light & Shadow + Arcane. Thus, by channeling her power, you can access these aspects.

That's the difference, I theorize, between Priests of Elune and balance druids. While the druids can certainly have faith in Elune, they channel Light and Arcane directly from the stars and moon.

This of course contains the theory that stars are just balls of gaseified Light, and have some connection to Arcane.

Last edited by Ethenil; 12-15-2017 at 05:55 AM..
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