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Old 02-09-2015, 07:02 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Default What does a new Forsaken RTS campaign even look like?

So, come with me on this journey.

Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas. If you had to do something that didn't dramatically impact the Forsaken's current geopolitical standing (i.e. they're still with the Horde, they're not going to blightbomb Stormwind) then what would be a self-contained story you could tell with the Forsaken?

The first ideas that came to my mind involved Sylvanas begrudgingly assisting Bolvar in containing the remnants of the Scourge and/or delving into Azjol-Nerub.

Would it serve to keep the story focused on Sylvanas or try to build up another Forsaken character, like Nathanos Marris?
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:00 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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It'd be better to establish a character who can be set up as an eventual replacement for Sylvanas.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:34 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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If ti's not supposed to change the political landscape too much, then I suppose it would involve cleaning house. Getting rid of stragglers like the Scarlet Crusade, Varimathras loyalists, Lordaeron survivors, Rotbrains, Worgen, etc.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:01 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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It'd be better to establish a character who can be set up as an eventual replacement for Sylvanas.
If there would be an RTS campaign based on the Forsaken I would be thinking along the lines of this + Civil War between factions like the Royal Apothecary Society, Deathguard ect vying for control post-Sylvanas. Main character could be a Forsaken war hero from the War in Northrend with an army of veterans and new blood Forsaken taking advantage of the current situation(Probably taking advantage of the Deathstalkers) and hitting the major factions duking it out eventually taking over, potentially reforming the Forsaken government and function.

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Old 02-10-2015, 07:51 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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So, come with me on this journey.

Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas. ...
NOOOOOOOOEEEESSSS.

You beat me to it. :<

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
...If you had to do something that didn't dramatically impact the Forsaken's current geopolitical standing (i.e. they're still with the Horde, they're not going to blightbomb Stormwind) then what would be a self-contained story you could tell with the Forsaken?

The first ideas that came to my mind involved Sylvanas begrudgingly assisting Bolvar in containing the remnants of the Scourge and/or delving into Azjol-Nerub.

Would it serve to keep the story focused on Sylvanas or try to build up another Forsaken character, like Nathanos Marris?
I'll be honest, I haven't given these guys too much thought. I imagine they would want to try & build up their 'base of operations' and ostensibly their 'kingdom', consolidating power & such... I don't know that I would involve the Scarlet Crusade at all (who's Bolvar?), since they weren't in Wc3. More like "interacting with the Alliance in Lordaeron" kinda stuff... I guess.

Dunno if I would've thought of the whole "Varimathras betrayal" bit I keep hearing about, though it makes sense.

I wouldn't mind a "civil war", intra-faction conflict within the Forsaken... Though then I'd have to find a rationalization/replacement for the many "plague"-oriented parts of the (ultimately necessary) custom RTS faction (Dark Apothecary hero, Plague Rider, Plague-a-pult, etc). Bleh.

Speaking of which, what did you have in mind for such an RTS campaign's custom faction? Drawing a lot of inspiration from WoW? Creating a non-Scourge counterpart? More ghosts, more skellies, less zombies? More archers/mages? More Elves/Magicians, or more Humans/Divine-guys? I'd love to bandy ideas about this especially.


Also, not sure if this is what you're looking for, but this might interest you... People seem to think pretty highly of Tomoraider's work.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:02 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas.


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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas.


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Presume for a moment that you could do a Warcraft RTS campaign that centered on the Forsaken and Sylvanas.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:57 PM
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:28 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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<snip>
Baron, I expect this type of thing from Genya, but not from you.

Seriously, now: if the the RoC Undead campaign was about Arthas' exploits as a Death Knight, and if the TFT campaign split time between Arthas' continued adventures and Sylvanas doing her level best to kill the shit out of him, and if Blizzard has done very little with the faction directly throughout the course of WoW (aside from the Gilnean Campaign, which was pretty well-handled in-game) then what kind of story do you do to lead on from that?

I'm not really talking about a sequel to WoW, but just trying to get a sense of what one could do within the constraints of a campaign the focuses on the Forsaken.

Would it help if it was part of a larger story and the Forsaken just covered one act of it, since that's how WC3/TFT did it?
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:06 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Baron, I expect this type of thing from Genya, but not from you.
I loved playing all of those campaigns that I clipped pictures from. Can you imagine... playing a campaign where you militarily defeat and conquer the whole of Azeroth, not just the Eastern Kingdoms but also Kalimdor, Northrend, Pandaria... everything! Total domination.

The world; a prize not to be destroyed like the brainless Burning Legion or the insatiable Old Horde would do, but to be conquered and ruled. The stuff that some of these humans and elves probably dreamt of while still alive, now achievable through undeath.
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Old 02-11-2015, 01:33 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Can't really think of any big stories, since the forsaken don't have much ongoing events right now.

A civil war is possible, a la the rotbrains. Or you could have that forsaken lich guy try to secretly take command of the remnants of the scourge, with a civil war among those remnants (with other vying for control being that last blood prince, bartholomew, horde death knights and alliance death knights). Or maybe try a series of cover missions to try and get other undead on your side?
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Old 02-11-2015, 02:58 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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I don't even think the forsaken are so interesting to even have a civil war right now. There's no major players, no one making power plays except Sylvanas. It's about as interesting as making a civil war story about any one Alliance or Horde race.
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:23 PM
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If it were up to me, a Forsaken campaign might involve the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade actually reacting to Sylvanas' actions. (Heck, could easily see a bit of playing both sides of the conflict, Forsaken on the one side, Ebon Blade on the other)
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:34 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Baron, I expect this type of thing from Genya, but not from you.
I think he was serious...
//EDIT//
Yeah, he was serious. : )

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I loved playing all of those campaigns that I clipped pictures from. Can you imagine... playing a campaign where you militarily defeat and conquer the whole of Azeroth, not just the Eastern Kingdoms but also Kalimdor, Northrend, Pandaria... everything! Total domination.

The world; a prize not to be destroyed like the brainless Burning Legion or the insatiable Old Horde would do, but to be conquered and ruled. The stuff that some of these humans and elves probably dreamt of while still alive, now achievable through undeath.
You know, if I was game for a total world-changing event, that actually makes a lot of sense/sounds pretty cool... I mean think about it (said to the guy who obviously did); who better to rule the world than the scions of the dead? Never-dying & eternally ruling, once their grip is secured they can reign supreme for all time.

Basically, it's Eastern history if the Persian Empire was all Undead (since "conquest" & "destruction" are so Scourge-y); the Forsaken would rule over pretty much 'the world', with scores of constituent nations that would each maintain a form of sovereignty & such, while paying tribute to & supporting the great Undead overlords.

Would make a great setting for a story, actually.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
I'm not really talking about a sequel to WoW, but just trying to get a sense of what one could do within the constraints of a campaign the focuses on the Forsaken.
Ah, good. So, like me, more like a "between TFT & WoW" kinda setting?

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
Would it help if it was part of a larger story and the Forsaken just covered one act of it, since that's how WC3/TFT did it?
I think so; at least, that's what I'll be doing. I'm not quite sure how yet, but with Trolls happening first & Naga happening... 'later', we'll have to see. Forsaken, to me, are so far away from all the other races I'm doing it's a bit weird.

Anyway, for you... Not sure. Who else would this 'larger story' involve? Knowing that helps set some foundations.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
Seriously, now: if the the RoC Undead campaign was about Arthas' exploits as a Death Knight, and if the TFT campaign split time between Arthas' continued adventures and Sylvanas doing her level best to kill the shit out of him, and if Blizzard has done very little with the faction directly throughout the course of WoW (aside from the Gilnean Campaign, which was pretty well-handled in-game) then what kind of story do you do to lead on from that?
Hrm, great question.

What is the conflict? I.e. what is the most pertinent & potent 'thing' happening that involves the Forsaken, that would most upset the status quo? All stories are conflict (set up, presentation, resolution), so figure out what's stuck in Sylvanas' craw.

Do they have enemies? In a way the answer is "no(t really)", since the whole TFT Undead/Sylvanas missions were about her "carving out her little patch of land, destroying/subjugating all in her path", so I'm not sure outside aggressors make sense. But if you did... Well, Dalaran's pretty dead, but Quel'thalas might have some small contingent, or better the Dwarves/Gnomes might have something to say... Scourge could always be a threat. Naga are a good go-to (but weird, so far from the sea...

With no 'outer' enemies, "Civil War" is a puissant idea; it also has some story-related backing. Not just the whole "varimathras" thing, or the whole "royal apothecary society - bombing" thing, but consider the core, essential conflict of the Forsaken; "we were alive but now we're dead. We were enslaved but now we're free. NOW WHAT?" It'd be quite effortless to invoke the idea that there are many ways of dealing with that change, and have the Forsaken's bitter anger & frustration feed into a faction-al split. ("let's stay free" vs. "let's go back to the Scourge"? "let's embrace death-liness" vs. "let's try to relive our lives"? "let's follow the Queen" vs. "let's forget ridiculous aspects of life like 'queens' or 'kings' or whatever"? "let's destroy all life" vs. "let's leave well enough alone" vs. "let's subjugate all life"? Etc)

Are you going to focus on Sylvanas as a character? If so, consider her moral/ethical/action-able quandaries as an extension of the Forsaken (or vice versa), and plan accordingly.

(Are there other important characters? Going off of TFT it's really just Sylvanas & Varimathras, but I suppose there should be some 'head apothecary guy', and what about a raised Garithos?... Ah dannae, I try & avoid WoW-stuff where possible, but it might be necessary to involve some characters from there to fill certain roles ('general', 'spymaster', 'ambassador', etc))


On a side-possibly-related-note... What about the Worgen? Is there any conceivable reason (pre-/not-WoW, remember) that the Worgen could be convinced/coerced to join the Forsaken?

Also on a related note: What are your thoughts about the general 'make-up' of a pre-WoW Forsaken race? Personally, I'm not a big fan of the WoW-style "age of Heroes", as well as how everyone is just a Zombie (well, in a way I guess this makes sense; it's just that the Wc3 Scourge had few if any real 'Zombies', so having a whole race full of 'liberated Scourge' that is suddenly "zombehs", always seemed kinda weird). It makes sense for some things, but not for others; it's also a bit too homogenizing, when Wc3 is really a game about caricatures & archetypes.

That being said, I've had this discussion previously (can't recall exactly what I said there, though), and something I think makes a lot of sense is to craft the Forsaken as sort of an "alternate/opposite Undead race". As opposed to "massive swarms & unending Zerg-like multitudes", the Forsaken would be a lot smaller & a lot more concerned with keeping their people alive, as Necromancy is (arguably (aside from the Dark Ranger's "Black Arrow")) not present. Less of a focus on the fleshy-type Undeads, they would feature a greater emphasis on the ghostly-type (& possibly skeletal-type, again referencing the Black Arrow).
Ethnically, I think it makes perfect sense for them to predominantly be made of Elves (Arthas' destruction of Quel'thalas), Mages (Archimonde's/Kel'thuzad's/Arthas' destruction of Dalaran), and then Humans (Arthas'/Sylvanas' destruction of Lordaeron & such). Maybe some Dwarves or Gnomes or whatever, but probably not (much).

So more casters/ranged/guerrilla fighters... Sorta like a Human/Undead mix, or perhaps an Undead/Night Elf mix (hm, interesting; hadn't thought of that before...).

In that respect, I'm torn about whether or not to include any racial representation of the multitudes of Subjugated (not undead, just Charmed/possessed/mind controlled) races into a Wc3-style Forsaken race. I mean, that was, like, her diplomacy du jour; Mind Control them all! If you played your cards right, you ended each of her missions with dozens of enslaved puppets, and of a wide variety of races; not just Humans but Ogres, Gnolls, Trolls (nope, killed them all ), Kobolds, Bandits (ok, yeah, those are Humans), etc!

Perhaps, like the Mur'gul for the Naga, a representation of mind-controlled minions ("trainable" from a (special?) barracks or whatever) can provide the cannon fodder/meat shield that protects the prized Forsaken troops. Or "would", that is to say.

I've talked long enough, & I fear I've supplanted some of your topic for my own purposes. Hopefully it will help you, though. Thoughts?
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:39 PM
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The only plausible campaign with the current Forsaken would basically be a remake of the Scourge campaign in Warcraft 3. Except, Sylvanas doesn't have the evil sword to "justify" her actions.
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:59 PM
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The only plausible campaign for the Forsaken is one in which all Forsaken are killed down to the last man and woman.

The best Warcraft Legends Manga was when the Scarlet Crusaders dragged a Forsaken and a Blood Elf out of a house and shot them both in the head. That owned and I wish to see it repeated on a massive scale.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:37 PM
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the best warcraft legends manga was when the scarlet crusaders dragged a forsaken and a blood elf out of a house and shot them both in the head. That owned and i wish to see it repeated on a massive scale.
o_o
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:00 AM
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o_o
You're not seriously surprised by Fojar anymore, are you?

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Hrm, great question.

What is the conflict? I.e. what is the most pertinent & potent 'thing' happening that involves the Forsaken, that would most upset the status quo? All stories are conflict (set up, presentation, resolution), so figure out what's stuck in Sylvanas' craw.

Do they have enemies? In a way the answer is "no(t really)", since the whole TFT Undead/Sylvanas missions were about her "carving out her little patch of land, destroying/subjugating all in her path", so I'm not sure outside aggressors make sense. But if you did... Well, Dalaran's pretty dead, but Quel'thalas might have some small contingent, or better the Dwarves/Gnomes might have something to say... Scourge could always be a threat. Naga are a good go-to (but weird, so far from the sea...

With no 'outer' enemies, "Civil War" is a puissant idea; it also has some story-related backing. Not just the whole "varimathras" thing, or the whole "royal apothecary society - bombing" thing, but consider the core, essential conflict of the Forsaken; "we were alive but now we're dead. We were enslaved but now we're free. NOW WHAT?" It'd be quite effortless to invoke the idea that there are many ways of dealing with that change, and have the Forsaken's bitter anger & frustration feed into a faction-al split. ("let's stay free" vs. "let's go back to the Scourge"? "let's embrace death-liness" vs. "let's try to relive our lives"? "let's follow the Queen" vs. "let's forget ridiculous aspects of life like 'queens' or 'kings' or whatever"? "let's destroy all life" vs. "let's leave well enough alone" vs. "let's subjugate all life"? Etc)
I wanted to call out this particular piece because I think it really bears mention: the Forsaken ultimately have no viable conflict in a post-Scourge world. I don't think I've seen any kind of duality in their perspective since the implication Putress and Varimathras were put down, especially since Sylvanas decided to own the Blight and weaponize it in Gilneas.

The Forsaken came together out of a hunger for vengeance against Arthas because Arthas killed them and enslaved them. They came to resent the living because the living generally didn't discriminate between them and the Scourge. So with the Scourge out of the way, the Forsaken really only have one problem, which is all the living people who still want to see them put down because they're undead.

They don't have any internal conflicts, because no one speaks against Sylvanas. Not because they fear her, but because there really doesn't seem to be anyone who disagrees with her. There are no dissenting voices within the Forsaken. Which ultimately sucks, because it means that they're all pretty much unified in wanting to kill the living.

So broadly speaking, you've got the Forsaken wanting to kill the living and the living generally not wanting to be killed by them. I don't think that's a reasonable avenue to address, since it upends the status quo of the Forsaken being a part of the Horde... but there still might be a way to play it.

We know that during Cataclysm, Sylvanas is working to secure the Forsaken hold on Lordaeron and solidify her borders. Meanwhile, you've got the Alliance attempting to reclaim some of the purified areas of the Western Plaguelands while the Argents are holding the line against Scourge remnants in the Eastern Plaguelands. And while you've got some Death Knights like Thassarian and Koltira who've returned to the Alliance and Horde to serve, you've also got anyone who's stuck around with Darion Mograine who are really all about atoning for the sins of the Scourge.

So there's a lot of potential external conflicts for the Forsaken: the Alliance wants Lordaeron back, Tirion Fordring is a huge threat because of the Ashbringer (a weapon designed to destroy the undead), and Mograine is probably going to be very cautious about Sylvanas because she is as dangerous as any of the other ex-Scourge autocrats that's trying to maintain power with Bolvar trying to keep the dead contained.

Furthermore, what's to say that there aren't some of those other ex-Scourge servants who are looking for a new master with Arthas gone? The val'kyr are a great example, but what's stopping the ymirjar? Or one of the san'layn?

What all of that does is make me wonder if it would work to do a TFT-like campaign where you switch between Sylvanas assaulting Andorhal to squeeze the Alliance out of Lordaeron, and Mograine trying to pacify Scourge remnants and butting heads with Sylvanas as a result.

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On a side-possibly-related-note... What about the Worgen? Is there any conceivable reason (pre-/not-WoW, remember) that the Worgen could be convinced/coerced to join the Forsaken?
I don't think there's really any room for it. There weren't many worgen outside of Gilneas in a space that the Forsaken had access to, and it seems like only Arthas was able to raise the Sons of Arugal, since that's the explanation for worgen Death Knights.

Moreover, I really wouldn't want to take the worgen away from the Alliance to any extent. Yeah, maybe Blizzard's not really using them as the Alliance's dark side, but that doesn't mean the Forsaken gets to have all of the creatures of the night.
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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I wanted to call out this particular piece because I think it really bears mention: the Forsaken ultimately have no viable conflict in a post-Scourge world. I don't think I've seen any kind of duality in their perspective since the implication Putress and Varimathras were put down, especially since Sylvanas decided to own the Blight and weaponize it in Gilneas.

The Forsaken came together out of a hunger for vengeance against Arthas because Arthas killed them and enslaved them. They came to resent the living because the living generally didn't discriminate between them and the Scourge. So with the Scourge out of the way, the Forsaken really only have one problem, which is all the living people who still want to see them put down because they're undead.

They don't have any internal conflicts, because no one speaks against Sylvanas. Not because they fear her, but because there really doesn't seem to be anyone who disagrees with her. There are no dissenting voices within the Forsaken. Which ultimately sucks, because it means that they're all pretty much unified in wanting to kill the living.

So broadly speaking, you've got the Forsaken wanting to kill the living and the living generally not wanting to be killed by them. I don't think that's a reasonable avenue to address, since it upends the status quo of the Forsaken being a part of the Horde... but there still might be a way to play it.

We know that during Cataclysm, Sylvanas is working to secure the Forsaken hold on Lordaeron and solidify her borders. Meanwhile, you've got the Alliance attempting to reclaim some of the purified areas of the Western Plaguelands while the Argents are holding the line against Scourge remnants in the Eastern Plaguelands. And while you've got some Death Knights like Thassarian and Koltira who've returned to the Alliance and Horde to serve, you've also got anyone who's stuck around with Darion Mograine who are really all about atoning for the sins of the Scourge.

So there's a lot of potential external conflicts for the Forsaken: the Alliance wants Lordaeron back, Tirion Fordring is a huge threat because of the Ashbringer (a weapon designed to destroy the undead), and Mograine is probably going to be very cautious about Sylvanas because she is as dangerous as any of the other ex-Scourge autocrats that's trying to maintain power with Bolvar trying to keep the dead contained.

Furthermore, what's to say that there aren't some of those other ex-Scourge servants who are looking for a new master with Arthas gone? The val'kyr are a great example, but what's stopping the ymirjar? Or one of the san'layn?

What all of that does is make me wonder if it would work to do a TFT-like campaign where you switch between Sylvanas assaulting Andorhal to squeeze the Alliance out of Lordaeron, and Mograine trying to pacify Scourge remnants and butting heads with Sylvanas as a result.
IMHO that's the best idea if you want to work with the present status quo as an starting point.
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:11 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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That being said, I've had this discussion previously (can't recall exactly what I said there, though), and something I think makes a lot of sense is to craft the Forsaken as sort of an "alternate/opposite Undead race". As opposed to "massive swarms & unending Zerg-like multitudes", the Forsaken would be a lot smaller & a lot more concerned with keeping their people alive, as Necromancy is (arguably (aside from the Dark Ranger's "Black Arrow")) not present. Less of a focus on the fleshy-type Undeads, they would feature a greater emphasis on the ghostly-type (& possibly skeletal-type, again referencing the Black Arrow).
Ethnically, I think it makes perfect sense for them to predominantly be made of Elves (Arthas' destruction of Quel'thalas), Mages (Archimonde's/Kel'thuzad's/Arthas' destruction of Dalaran), and then Humans (Arthas'/Sylvanas' destruction of Lordaeron & such). Maybe some Dwarves or Gnomes or whatever, but probably not (much).

So more casters/ranged/guerrilla fighters... Sorta like a Human/Undead mix, or perhaps an Undead/Night Elf mix (hm, interesting; hadn't thought of that before...).

In that respect, I'm torn about whether or not to include any racial representation of the multitudes of Subjugated (not undead, just Charmed/possessed/mind controlled) races into a Wc3-style Forsaken race. I mean, that was, like, her diplomacy du jour; Mind Control them all! If you played your cards right, you ended each of her missions with dozens of enslaved puppets, and of a wide variety of races; not just Humans but Ogres, Gnolls, Trolls (nope, killed them all ), Kobolds, Bandits (ok, yeah, those are Humans), etc!

Perhaps, like the Mur'gul for the Naga, a representation of mind-controlled minions ("trainable" from a (special?) barracks or whatever) can provide the cannon fodder/meat shield that protects the prized Forsaken troops. Or "would", that is to say.

I've talked long enough, & I fear I've supplanted some of your topic for my own purposes. Hopefully it will help you, though. Thoughts?
That does break open a greater discussion about what kind of units a post-Scourge Forsaken has got. Because we don't see the Forsaken using necromancy to raise slave labor.... unless I'm wrong and that HAS happened somewhere.

I feel like you wouldn't see them using Forsaken "peasants," which makes me think they'd have something else doing that work for them. I don't know why, but undead kobolds come to mind.

I'll need to come back at this when I've got more brainpower to dedicate to it, but the bottom line is that how you want to characterize the Forsaken is going to govern what kind of units you give them. If people really want the zerg-like Scourge with all of the cult of the damned and Nerubian elements included, then that's just not a model that's really going to work with Sylvanas and her Forsaken.
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Old 02-15-2015, 03:00 PM
Xarthat Xarthat is offline

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The thing I liked the most about the RTS campaigns was them not being bound to status quo. In the end, you almost always had some major shifts in power. So if there was to be a Forsaken RTS campaign, it'd have to deal with Sylvanas's ambitions to conquer all of Lordaeron, and those ambitions potentially blowing up in her face.
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:27 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Well if it was a Forsaken campaign, then Sylvanas would win. The plot twist wouldn't be plans blowing up in her face as much as, say, a bittersweet victory.

I could see a story where she routes out all the scourge in the Plaguelands, but inadvertently gives rise to a stronger Scarlet Crusade in the process.
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Old 02-15-2015, 09:09 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Yes because an RTS campaign can't end in a complete and utter defeat, that never happens. Examples: Human Campaign in Warcraft 1, Alliance campaign in RoC.
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Old 02-15-2015, 09:26 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Yes because an RTS campaign can't end in a complete and utter defeat, that never happens. Examples: Human Campaign in Warcraft 1, Alliance campaign in RoC.
Keyword: Alliance.
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Old 02-15-2015, 09:58 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Yes because an RTS campaign can't end in a complete and utter defeat, that never happens. Examples: Human Campaign in Warcraft 1, Alliance campaign in RoC.
Using the WC1/WC2 model of campaign design doesn't really feel like it floats anymore, because Blizzard ended up having to choose one of the endings to advance and the other story was non-canonical. The SC/WC3 model of having the racial campaigns played in sequence means that there is a single determined story that advances instead.

To put it more bluntly: the human campaign in WC1 didn't end in defeat, because it ended with humanity destroying Blackrock Mountain and defeating the Horde. WC2 didn't go with that ending. The Alliance campaign in RoC was centered on Arthas pursuing his goals, rather than being an Alliance narrative.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:11 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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The Alliance campaign in RoC was centered on Arthas pursuing his goals, rather than being an Alliance narrative.
It was a tragedy about the downfall of Lordaeron, it was an Alliance narrative.

It just ended badly.
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