Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 01-13-2015, 12:55 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,378
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I don't think there are any real gods on Azeroth, just extremely powerful magical creatures. Even the Titans aren't really 'gods' in the omnipotent and immortal sense, they're just individuals that are the best at what they do. I would say Bronsamdi and the other loas are just particularly influential troll spirits.

With magic everything looks godly. Arthas could bring people back from the dead but at the end of the day he was still an imperfect mortal.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-13-2015, 01:08 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

Ethermancer - Admin
Cantus's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DC, U.S.
Posts: 11,090
BattleTag: Cantus#1700

Default

I'll reiterate, Samedi is not a singular entity, but multiple under the real world Haitian/West African derivation.

Bwonsamdi doesn't abhor undeath, hell he's happy to use it to his advantage. It's the abuse of the dead that he's against. Necromancy is forcing a body/spirit to act against its own will after it should have passed on. Again, taking from the IRL Samedi, the peaceful rest of the dead is his modus operandi.

That doesn't preclude a spirit rising up on its own and spending time with the living (violently or otherwise), just that those who would force it to action are condemned.

And returning to the topic of singular versus multiple overall death gods/pantheons, Death itself requires a definition. Hades watched over both good and evil souls. Satan is evil souls only. Valhalla and Hel both existed and both had specific individuals they catered to. Bwonsamdi doesn't have to be "THE" Death god to be an aspect of it, nor does he have to necessarily be separate from it.

There's no reason we can't suppose that Metzen & Co. took the Marvel approach and used both an overarching entity representing death while simultaneously allowing for lesser avatars or representatives of it.
__________________

Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-13-2015, 02:17 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

Warden
Charles Phipps's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 762

Default

Quote:
Satan is evil souls only.
Folklore Satan is the ruler of hell while doctrinally, he's just its chief prisoner. Judaic angelogy has Satan's analog as the ruler of Hell and tempter of mankind but he's explicitly working for God.

I think it's interesting, though, to think the Lich King has usurped a part of Bwonsamdi's realm.

Which is why there's a "hell" now in Azeroth.

Normally, I imagine souls there aren't tortured.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles for geek media reviews and essays!
Follow me on Twitter: @Willowhugger
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-13-2015, 02:39 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I don't think there are any real gods on Azeroth, just extremely powerful magical creatures. Even the Titans aren't really 'gods' in the omnipotent and immortal sense, they're just individuals that are the best at what they do. I would say Bronsamdi and the other loas are just particularly influential troll spirits.

With magic everything looks godly. Arthas could bring people back from the dead but at the end of the day he was still an imperfect mortal.
There are very few true gods. Elune is one, Hakkar is another. The Titans, while god-like, aren't gods. Neither are the old gods (despite their claims).

Quote:

I think it's interesting, though, to think the Lich King has usurped a part of Bwonsamdi's realm.

Which is why there's a "hell" now in Azeroth.

Normally, I imagine souls there aren't tortured.
Why wouldn't there have been a hell before? Not everyone can go to heaven. Where would the evil people who died before Arthas became the LK have gone?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-14-2015, 09:51 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Pretty sure it's established that the loas predate the titans' arrival (as a group, that is - obviously some specific ones may have come into being since then).
Oh really? I'd be interested in the discussion as to where this comes from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Living on the planet (or serving/helping/aiding some of the races that live on the planet) is one thing, you're advocating they all be one family (more or less) THAT is what sucks the flavor out of it. The troll Loa/loa don't use the Light itself, neither does Elune or the taurens Earthmother. Their spells and powers are specific to them. Not to the Light. Their effects are similar to the Light, but again not literally the Light, otherwise when the devoted of those races die, everyone would end up in the same place.

Which doesn't happen. Kaldorei go to their afterlife, the tauren to another, the trolls to another one. Humans go to their own, as do the dwarves and High/Blood elves (those three have some overlap in all likelihood since they have the same religion, but what about the Dwarves that aren't Light worshippers?).
...
First of all: How do you/we know that? (I'm legitimately asking, as a non-WoW-player). AFAIK, everyone who dies sees that weird wispy "Spirit Healer" lady. So exactly how much do we know about the reality of life after death in WoW? Sure, I'll grant that Kaldorei believe in a particular afterlife, where the Tauren, Trolls, Humans, Orcs, Goblins, Undead, and Fungal Giants all have their own beliefs... But where are we told which one(s) really happen(s)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Death comes to everything, but it doesn't have to be controlled by one being. That's one of the things I am objecting to. Bwonsambi isn't and shouldn't be THE god of death underlying death and all of its aspects. That's just stupid. it doesn't take any of the other gods into account or other beliefs. Those things would have an impact in how other cultures see death and the afterlife. I can see him as having a part of it, dealing with the trollish afterlife and such but not any one else's unless they ask him for it, or he starts poaching souls (which would open him up to souls supposed to go to him being stolen from him).

You want a shaped mythology. Why? For what reason? ...
All of the races beliefs might have similarities, but they aren't connected that closely and they aren't a shared mythology. Different pantheons aren't the same or connected either.

If Bwomsambi was the natural force behind death, then there would be a lot more than just trolls revering him and so far there hasn't been -any- mention of him being worshiped or even known by other races. You're stretching to try and claim he is a Natural Force behind death. A force behind death, like other racial deities, yes, I can see that; but THE force behind death? No. It makes pretty much everything the other races believe in to be lies since it would be Bwomsambi being the one deciding who goes where and such. This isn't the forgotten Realms and Kelvemar or Hades or any other god of death from other cultures.
Sure it does/No it doesn't. We're saying that there is some entity ('god' (?)), who is given power over the force/reality/etc of 'death'. This 'god of death', then, is recognized in a variety of different cultures, races & religions in a plethora of ways. The Trolls just happen to call him "Bwonsamdi" (or "Baron Samedi", though I t'ink dose two ah da same, personally).

That's kinda what we're getting at here. Sure, we have a rich & vibrant world filled with hundreds of ideologies or philosophies, and millions of individuals... But there are big universal constants. For me personally (& I speak for many others), we find it really interesting/appealing to see how the various socioethical constructs & frameworks inter-relate and, plausibly, could have a shared ancestry. That is to say, we're not trying to make one big super-religion where it's all the same. But consider that many times, cultures simply have different names for the same thing; Hades in one culture is comparable to Set in another and Hel in another and so on & so forth (I stopped after Greek, Egyptian & Norse because those are all the mythologies that Age of Mythology covers. Lawl). All three speak to one universal constant that all of humanity has had to come to terms with: death & the afterlife.

Same goes for probably almost everything else. Rather than 'homogenizing', I find it liberating & engaging.
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-14-2015, 10:01 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 12,052
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Oh really? I'd be interested in the discussion as to where this comes from.
A combination of Ask CDev and Shadows of the Horde.

From Ask CDev round 2:
Quote:
Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir.
And from Shadows of the Horde, we know the Loa predate even trolls.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-14-2015, 10:08 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
First of all: How do you/we know that? (I'm legitimately asking, as a non-WoW-player). AFAIK, everyone who dies sees that weird wispy "Spirit Healer" lady. So exactly how much do we know about the reality of life after death in WoW? Sure, I'll grant that Kaldorei believe in a particular afterlife, where the Tauren, Trolls, Humans, Orcs, Goblins, Undead, and Fungal Giants all have their own beliefs... But where are we told which one(s) really happen(s)?
Since some elders do come back for the Lunar festival, and the Kaldorei priestesses can talk to their goddess, I think it's safe to say that yes, they do know where their souls go after dying. Each culture has different ideals, beliefs and just plain differences. What is true for one culture about death won't hold the same to another culture. Kaldorei verse the tauren verse the humans for example. Three very different cultures with three very different beliefs in where souls go upon death. One can't be right and the others wrong. That would mean the other cultures beliefs are a flat out lie from top to bottom. Why can;t they be specific to their beliefs and that's where the souls go upon death?


Quote:
Sure it does/No it doesn't. We're saying that there is some entity ('god' (?)), who is given power over the force/reality/etc of 'death'. This 'god of death', then, is recognized in a variety of different cultures, races & religions in a plethora of ways. The Trolls just happen to call him "Bwonsamdi" (or "Baron Samedi", though I t'ink dose two ah da same, personally).

That's kinda what we're getting at here. Sure, we have a rich & vibrant world filled with hundreds of ideologies or philosophies, and millions of individuals... But there are big universal constants. For me personally (& I speak for many others), we find it really interesting/appealing to see how the various socioethical constructs & frameworks inter-relate and, plausibly, could have a shared ancestry. That is to say, we're not trying to make one big super-religion where it's all the same. But consider that many times, cultures simply have different names for the same thing; Hades in one culture is comparable to Set in another and Hel in another and so on & so forth (I stopped after Greek, Egyptian & Norse because those are all the mythologies that Age of Mythology covers. Lawl). All three speak to one universal constant that all of humanity has had to come to terms with: death & the afterlife.

Same goes for probably almost everything else. Rather than 'homogenizing', I find it liberating & engaging.
I don't mind the concept of death itself being relatively the same. What I do mind is that one god, deity or being controls were all of Azeroth's dead go. That concept I find annoying and homogenizing. Not to mention that this Bwonsambi could potentially deny souls to the gods/culture's afterlife based on what this being thinks/wants. That is an uncomfortable amount of control one person or being would have over -all- of Azeroth's dead. It's easier, and simpler and more diverse to just have each race/culture's dead goes to the afterlife that race/culture specifies for the believer. Saying there is one god of death that deals with all of the dead souls means every god or whatever force there is (the Light) has to basically petition or beg that one god of death for the souls of their believers. And considering we're talking about different races (literally), it just seems rather strange to have one being/god/whatever, have that much control over every races dead.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-14-2015, 11:03 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Females say they want an honourable mate but go for warmongers.

Yes, I collect My Vicious Wolves.

I'm often exiled to the friend zone.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-14-2015, 11:22 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,474

Default

Having Bwom control all races dead is silly and trivializes other religions
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-14-2015, 12:32 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Since some elders do come back for the Lunar festival, and the Kaldorei priestesses can talk to their goddess, I think it's safe to say that yes, they do know where their souls go after dying.
Ok, so In-Universe we have various spiritual figures from the various factions communing with their various deities. But how does that prove that they have actual, literal knowledge about the afterlife (among other things) (and then, by extension, us)?? I haven't played WoW, so don't beat around the bush; give me some direction quotation/video/etc that details the afterlife from a reputable (In-Universe) source (not even sure who that would be... Titans?)

Do you see what I'm saying? I say "how do we really know who's right, does *anyone* really know", and you say "yeah, these people know, they talk to their god(s)". To that I respond "well, ok, then of course they would hear their version of the story from their own deity; Zeus will tell the Oracle(s) that Hades is fo' real, while YWHW will tell all Jews to avoid Sheol. That doesn't 'prove' anything (IRL what I'm asking is is essentially impossible, given that 'prove' isn't quite possible[citation needed], but In-Universe? In the world that Blizzard created & that they have/could provide answers to? Certainly possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind
Each culture has different ideals, beliefs and just plain differences. What is true for one culture about death won't hold the same to another culture. Kaldorei verse the tauren verse the humans for example. Three very different cultures with three very different beliefs in where souls go upon death. One can't be right and the others wrong. That would mean the other cultures beliefs are a flat out lie from top to bottom. Why can;t they be specific to their beliefs and that's where the souls go upon death?
Sure they can! There's a neat little video I watched called The Saga of Bjorn that, while humorously done (& not necessarily how I believe things work IRL) illustrates this point. Why can't they all be right?, in their own 'sphere of influence'? The Troll 'God of Death' gets the Trolls, Elune gets the Night Elves, etc gets the etc... Alternatively, the true, universal "god (of death?)" gets everyone, but is known by many names across many cultures. And what people get is what they expect; Valhalla for the Dwarves, Heaven for the Humans, Oblivion for the Forsaken, Crystalley-Retcon-Land for the Draenei, etc.

Everyone can have their own beliefs. Until one is proven "right" (see above), the discrepancy can be explained any number of interesting ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind
I don't mind the concept of death itself being relatively the same. What I do mind is that one god, deity or being controls were all of Azeroth's dead go. That concept I find annoying and homogenizing. Not to mention that this Bwonsambi could potentially deny souls to the gods/culture's afterlife based on what this being thinks/wants. That is an uncomfortable amount of control one person or being would have over -all- of Azeroth's dead. It's easier, and simpler and more diverse to just have each race/culture's dead goes to the afterlife that race/culture specifies for the believer. Saying there is one god of death that deals with all of the dead souls means every god or whatever force there is (the Light) has to basically petition or beg that one god of death for the souls of their believers. And considering we're talking about different races (literally), it just seems rather strange to have one being/god/whatever, have that much control over every races dead.
Uh, no? What makes having one "god of death" mean that they are necessarily picky? If anything, I imagine quite a generous & accepting individual in this position; remember, these gods are (I assume(d)) meant to be simply embodiments of an ideal; death is no respecter of persons & doesn't need to be begged or petitioned. The bell tolls for whom it tolls. They just have different names for the bell.
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-14-2015, 01:21 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,440

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Females say they want an honourable mate but go for warmongers.

Yes, I collect My Little Podlings.

I'm often exiled to the Valley of Friendship.
Fixed.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:04 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Ok, so In-Universe we have various spiritual figures from the various factions communing with their various deities. But how does that prove that they have actual, literal knowledge about the afterlife (among other things) (and then, by extension, us)?? I haven't played WoW, so don't beat around the bush; give me some direction quotation/video/etc that details the afterlife from a reputable (In-Universe) source (not even sure who that would be... Titans?)

Do you see what I'm saying? I say "how do we really know who's right, does *anyone* really know", and you say "yeah, these people know, they talk to their god(s)". To that I respond "well, ok, then of course they would hear their version of the story from their own deity; Zeus will tell the Oracle(s) that Hades is fo' real, while YWHW will tell all Jews to avoid Sheol. That doesn't 'prove' anything (IRL what I'm asking is is essentially impossible, given that 'prove' isn't quite possible[citation needed], but In-Universe? In the world that Blizzard created & that they have/could provide answers to? Certainly possible).


Sure they can! There's a neat little video I watched called The Saga of Bjorn that, while humorously done (& not necessarily how I believe things work IRL) illustrates this point. Why can't they all be right?, in their own 'sphere of influence'? The Troll 'God of Death' gets the Trolls, Elune gets the Night Elves, etc gets the etc... Alternatively, the true, universal "god (of death?)" gets everyone, but is known by many names across many cultures. And what people get is what they expect; Valhalla for the Dwarves, Heaven for the Humans, Oblivion for the Forsaken, Crystalley-Retcon-Land for the Draenei, etc.

Everyone can have their own beliefs. Until one is proven "right" (see above), the discrepancy can be explained any number of interesting ways.


Uh, no? What makes having one "god of death" mean that they are necessarily picky? If anything, I imagine quite a generous & accepting individual in this position; remember, these gods are (I assume(d)) meant to be simply embodiments of an ideal; death is no respecter of persons & doesn't need to be begged or petitioned. The bell tolls for whom it tolls. They just have different names for the bell.
Or have it just be death. No god, no one force controlling or guiding all of the dead to the races/cultures afterlifes. Just death and the afterlife of each races beliefs specifications. It doesn't have to be all tied together.



Quote:
Alternatively, the true, universal "god (of death?)" gets everyone, but is known by many names across many cultures.
Seems rather silly. One god controlling where every soul in the universe goes? Not buying it. Any god or belief that pisses off that god could lose access to the souls of their devoted.

Quote:
Why can't they all be right?
Because that means all of the faiths are lies if all souls end up in the same place.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:13 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,474

Default

Said it before: if you're not religious in Azeroth your soul is up for grabs
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:15 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Said it before: if you're not religious in Azeroth your soul is up for grabs
That is doable, or the soul just dissolves into nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:18 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Or have it just be death. No god, no one force controlling or guiding all of the dead to the races/cultures afterlifes. Just death and the afterlife of each races beliefs specifications. It doesn't have to be all tied together.
Ok. Like I said, "death" having many different names.

"Tied together", in death. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind
Seems rather silly. One god controlling where every soul in the universe goes? Not buying it. Any god or belief that pisses off that god could lose access to the souls of their devoted.
IRL: Well, sorry, that's how it is? Don't worry, it won't be that bad.
In-WoW: Um, did you miss the part where I said "an entity devoid of passions that cannot be displeased or whatever"?? (didn't actually say that directly, but my point is, personifying death doesn't have to entail anthropomorphizing death; 'death is no respecter of persons').

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind
Because that means all of the faiths are lies if all souls end up in the same place.
Lies? Rather, different perspectives on the same truth.
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:28 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,440

Default

Did Blizz ever address the orcs and their spiritual situation? First the spirits simply stopped talking to the orcs, but later on their ties actually got severed permanently. Like, all this time, the orcs have been unable to consult the spirits of their ancestors. (Something they used to be capable of doing.)

Blizzard hasn't revisited this. A lot of bloodshed might've been avoided if Grom's spirit had been capable of telling Garrosh to simmer down.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:30 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,929

Default

Oshu'gun isn't on Azeroth, or something like that. They need dead or dying Naaru, I think.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:35 PM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

Warden
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 731

Default

As Nazja said, that was thanks to Oshu'gun. The dying naaru was the one attracting the souls of the dead orcs. Rise of the Horde even says that the draenei never wanted the orcs to know its true purpose and just let them take it as some kind of spiritual link to their dead.

I don't know if the shamans on Azeroth know how to speak to the dead.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:44 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,440

Default

I don't believe that the orcs were unable to speak to their ancestral spirits prior to the arrival of the draenei.

Shit, Baine was able to consult Cairne's spirit in War Crimes. Tauren and trolls alike seem to be able to commune with the dead rather easily. So why would the orcs need Oshu'gun to do that? Certainly, Oshu'gun made it easier but I find it hard to believe the orcs were never able to make contact with the spirits before Oshu'gun's landing.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-14-2015, 04:12 PM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

Priestess of the Moon
HackBenjamin's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Storm Peaks, Canada
Posts: 518

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitrix View Post
As Nazja said, that was thanks to Oshu'gun. The dying naaru was the one attracting the souls of the dead orcs. Rise of the Horde even says that the draenei never wanted the orcs to know its true purpose and just let them take it as some kind of spiritual link to their dead.

I don't know if the shamans on Azeroth know how to speak to the dead.
Draenei don't believe in the Prime Directive.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-14-2015, 04:19 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,929

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
I don't believe that the orcs were unable to speak to their ancestral spirits prior to the arrival of the draenei.

Shit, Baine was able to consult Cairne's spirit in War Crimes. Tauren and trolls alike seem to be able to commune with the dead rather easily. So why would the orcs need Oshu'gun to do that? Certainly, Oshu'gun made it easier but I find it hard to believe the orcs were never able to make contact with the spirits before Oshu'gun's landing.
Because the Oshu'gun made orc shamans lazy, leading orcs to forget or never develop the necessary rites?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-14-2015, 04:56 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Ok. Like I said, "death" having many different names.

"Tied together", in death. : )
Going as far as people die, maybe. Going as far as they all are judged at the same place? Fuck no.


Quote:
IRL: Well, sorry, that's how it is? Don't worry, it won't be that bad.
In-WoW: Um, did you miss the part where I said "an entity devoid of passions that cannot be displeased or whatever"?? (didn't actually say that directly, but my point is, personifying death doesn't have to entail anthropomorphizing death; 'death is no respecter of persons').
It's still an entity that stands between all of the gods and beliefs and the souls that go to where the devoted of the specific beliefs goes. There shouldn't be anything standing between those souls or the afterlife they have.


Yyeeahh.. no.You're having death be some sort of entity. I'd rather it be nothing, just a state of being or something like that, with no being or entity having control over where all of the souls go.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-14-2015, 04:58 PM
HackBenjamin HackBenjamin is offline

Priestess of the Moon
HackBenjamin's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Storm Peaks, Canada
Posts: 518

Default

It would be nice if Orc lore pre-dating the arrival of the Draenei was fleshed out a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-14-2015, 06:05 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,474

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Did Blizz ever address the orcs and their spiritual situation? First the spirits simply stopped talking to the orcs, but later on their ties actually got severed permanently. Like, all this time, the orcs have been unable to consult the spirits of their ancestors. (Something they used to be capable of doing.)

Blizzard hasn't revisited this. A lot of bloodshed might've been avoided if Grom's spirit had been capable of telling Garrosh to simmer down.
I always thought it should've been possible

Heck i figured they'd try and the twilights would mess with it somehow
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-14-2015, 07:43 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

Warden
Charles Phipps's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 762

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Did Blizz ever address the orcs and their spiritual situation? First the spirits simply stopped talking to the orcs, but later on their ties actually got severed permanently. Like, all this time, the orcs have been unable to consult the spirits of their ancestors. (Something they used to be capable of doing.)

Blizzard hasn't revisited this. A lot of bloodshed might've been avoided if Grom's spirit had been capable of telling Garrosh to simmer down.
Given the way the Orcs are portrayed, I'm guessing their connection with the spirits is STILL a bit spotty.

Also, Garrosh has an incredibly poor spiritual focus.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles for geek media reviews and essays!
Follow me on Twitter: @Willowhugger
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
speculation, trolls

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.