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  #5951  
Old 06-30-2018, 01:38 PM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Night Elves should have been their own faction allied with the Alliance, same with the Forsaken; but with the Horde.
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  #5952  
Old 06-30-2018, 03:29 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Marthen touched on this in the reboot thread, but I say part of the problem with the Night Elves is the isssue other Races have in that their niches/stories are granted to other Races with the NEs also having the issue of never getting anything to make up for it. They're not the Burning Legion's designated enemy anymore (that's the Draenei), Druidism was made more or less Neutral, and we now have Nightborne to let Hordies have Horde NEs.

The NEs could have just had the niche of being the Blood Elves' archenemy among the Alliance. Except the High Elves have that instead. They're just there to be the Purple Tree Hugging High Elves Who Aren't High Elves.
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  #5953  
Old 06-30-2018, 03:54 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Marthen touched on this in the reboot thread, but I say part of the problem with the Night Elves is the isssue other Races have in that their niches/stories are granted to other Races with the NEs also having the issue of never getting anything to make up for it. They're not the Burning Legion's designated enemy anymore (that's the Draenei), Druidism was made more or less Neutral, and we now have Nightborne to let Hordies have Horde NEs.

The NEs could have just had the niche of being the Blood Elves' archenemy among the Alliance. Except the High Elves have that instead. They're just there to be the Purple Tree Hugging High Elves Who Aren't High Elves.
I always say that the races feel so bland is because their subfactions are not fleshed out. Every race should get the blood elf treatment, which is: to get specialized subgroups that give different roles for that race. Blood elves are more than just the arcane guys of the Horde: they have the Blood Knights, Farstriders, Magisters, Sunreavers, Reliquary and so on. This means it's easy to insert a blood elf in many different situations and make sense.

Look at AU!Draenei and how having the 5 specialized exarchs and their factions made them feel more varied and interesting. MU!Draenei need to revive groups like Auchenai or Rangari, as well as feature more of the krokul.

If I were to work on night elves, I'd flesh out the Priesthood of the Moon, the Sentinels, the Shen'dralar arcanists. I'd also improve the Watchers and make a specific sect of night elf-only druids that are totally not neutral. Give each group their leaders and some cast, and you have seeded a lot of potential spotlight for the night elves in the future.
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  #5954  
Old 06-30-2018, 05:09 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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They could have been the Alliance's unconventional warfare specialists. But then Wolfheart happened.
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  #5955  
Old 06-30-2018, 06:53 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I always say that the races feel so bland is because their subfactions are not fleshed out. Every race should get the blood elf treatment, which is: to get specialized subgroups that give different roles for that race. Blood elves are more than just the arcane guys of the Horde: they have the Blood Knights, Farstriders, Magisters, Sunreavers, Reliquary and so on. This means it's easy to insert a blood elf in many different situations and make sense.

Look at AU!Draenei and how having the 5 specialized exarchs and their factions made them feel more varied and interesting. MU!Draenei need to revive groups like Auchenai or Rangari, as well as feature more of the krokul.

If I were to work on night elves, I'd flesh out the Priesthood of the Moon, the Sentinels, the Shen'dralar arcanists. I'd also improve the Watchers and make a specific sect of night elf-only druids that are totally not neutral. Give each group their leaders and some cast, and you have seeded a lot of potential spotlight for the night elves in the future.
I like the way you think. In some respects I think Blizzard actually did that in Legion with the Night Elves but after Legion it seems like they're... forgetting? I mean, maybe the Night Elf subgroups are too busy on the Broken Isles still but it would have been a far more epic portrayal of them if they had been involved against the Horde, though I can see the issue of worfing that would need to be avoided to still have Teldrassil be a losing battle but in a dignified way.

Also the Alliance-aligned Druids should be led by Broll and make him far more aggressive against the Horde to set him apart from other Druids and their peaceful nature, and maybe get a Demon Hunter character there as well. (Maybe Jace Darkweaver?)
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  #5956  
Old 07-01-2018, 07:51 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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I like the way you think. In some respects I think Blizzard actually did that in Legion with the Night Elves but after Legion it seems like they're... forgetting? I mean, maybe the Night Elf subgroups are too busy on the Broken Isles still but it would have been a far more epic portrayal of them if they had been involved against the Horde, though I can see the issue of worfing that would need to be avoided to still have Teldrassil be a losing battle but in a dignified way.

Also the Alliance-aligned Druids should be led by Broll and make him far more aggressive against the Horde to set him apart from other Druids and their peaceful nature, and maybe get a Demon Hunter character there as well. (Maybe Jace Darkweaver?)
If it were up to me:

- Malfurion dies in the War of Thorns. Tyrande steps down from leadership of the night elves. Night elf society risks breaking apart, so Jarod Shadowsong steps up to keep it together.

- Priesthood of Elune: Still led by Tyrande. Lost a lot of prestige after the fall of War of Thorns.

- Sentinels: Warriors and Hunters. Led by Shandris Feathermoon. Shandris get more exposure. Good relantionship with the Priesthood and Primal Howl.

- Watchers: Rogues and monks. Led by Maiev Shadowson. Poor relantionship with Priesthood, Illidari Attoners and Moonguard.

- Moonguard: Mages, uniting the shen'dralar arcanists and the remnants of the Broken Isles Moonguard. Led by a council that includes Talrenus, Syrana, Lothrius, Mordent Evenshade, Estulan and Tarelvir. Still striving to gain prestige and reckognition, they have good relationship with the Sentinels and the Illidari Attoners.

- Illidari Attoners (Need better name): Demon hunters, led by Altruis the Sufferer, these Illidari wish to rejoin night elf society after the Legion's fall. Have good relationship with the Moonguard, and no one else for now.

- Order of the Primal Howl (Need better name): Druids, led by Broll Bearmantle. After the War of Thorns and the death of Malfurion, the Cenarion Circle is shattered and night elf druids form the Order of the Primal Howl in order to defend their people and restore their control of their ancestral lands in Kalimdor. Has good relationship with the Priesthood and Sentinels.
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  #5957  
Old 07-01-2018, 08:41 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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hmmmm.......

In addition to Tel’drassil and Undercity, we destroy at least Exodar and Silvermoon by the end of BfA. By the end of BfA both factions are truly brought to their knees, and actually have to sit down for at least a year or two (basically the course of an expansion) and actually rebuild their infrastructure.

While the factions have been destroying each other The Heart of Azeroth works better than anyone possibly imagined at healing Azeroth, to the point where it doesn’t just heal a brutal stab wound, but it also starts healing much older wounds. The Maelstrom not only stops churning, but, and land masses long forgotten begin to rise. Mostly barren, but not without ruins, lost cities, etc, etc, etc. the world may eventually return to its Pangeaic state, but that will take centuries. This will not interfere with Cataclysm or Legion content involving the Maelstrom any more than Draenor interferes with Outland, given the nature of how the zone is used.

The Expansion gives Races the same treatment that Classes have received in Legion. You’ll be founding a colony or a nation. This is how all those displaced races will find new homes, whilst other races will be expanding. To keep this from getting too taxing on game development resources (given the number of races and Allied Races we have in game), many of these will be in already established areas. For instance:
-Worgen will be rebuilding Gilneas
-Humans will be reclaiming Stromgarde
-Orcs (or maybe Mag’har) will be hitting Blackrock Mountain
-Dark Iron Dwarves will also compete for Blackrock Mountain (can’t go without a little faction conflict).
-Gnomes will finally reclaim Gnomeragan.
-Undead may try to establish themselves in Northrend

Whereas some of these races will be looking to set themselves up on the new continent, particularly Blood Elves and Night Elves.
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  #5958  
Old 07-01-2018, 08:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Night Elf Icon (War3)

When I first saw the night elves, in Wacraft 3 - Reign of Chaos's, I thought that Tyrande was only filling in the void left after the death of the night elves' leader, Cenarius, and that the Wardens and Ancient Keepers defied her because she was technically overstepping her bounds.

What drew me to the night elves back in the day were not only the elves who gave the faction their name but also all their nature allies, which unfortunately have been mostly absentee in World of Warcraft.

Perhaps it is time for my misunderstanding to become fact. Maybe it is time for Lunara to assume leadership of the night elves, bring back their nature allies and allow night elf Balance and Restoration druids to use a mostly cosmetic dryad/keeper from. (Replacing the Moonkin form on Balance.) Oh, and bring those nice fey satyr from Hearthstone into the faction, as an allied race!
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  #5959  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:21 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I will never not disagree with this. I'm lukewarm on whether they should have joined a faction or what faction they should have joined - but they didn't make the writers do what the writers would do to them.
Is it an excuse for the writers to do a bad job? Of course it is not, whatever the concept, they should strive to make their work as good as possible. But that doesn't change the fact that strictly conceptually, having more tribal night elves affiliated with the Horde (ie not necessarily part of) would have been better than what we got in Classic.

However, when it comes to me personally, I believe the best way (strictly from a lore perspective, so no game design etc involved in this opinion) would have been to have the Kaldorei fracture into a larger number of polities after the Third War, some staying isolationist, some Alliance, some Horde affiliated. Especially if they had followed with the whole civilization vs. primalism theme for the Alliance vs. the Horde, more imperialist Kaldorei disillusioned with Stormrage's ways and wishing to return to the old days would have been a good fit for the Alliance.
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  #5960  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:32 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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So how good are the dungeons in this expansion?
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  #5961  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:45 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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So how good are the dungeons in this expansion?
I've only done Normals, so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but here's a few I've done and what I think:
  • Atal'Dazar - I want to like it. It looks amazing, especially if you just like the Zandalari aesthetics. But also really, really quick dungeon. Kinda too easy to just down into different sections, bypass this and that. Rezan as a boss feels like a letdown after seeing him in action during questing.
  • Tol Dagor - Really enjoyed it. Especially fun if you keep in mind you're basically retracing your steps from the Alliance intro. Bosses I found to be pretty fun. Overall, just felt it was a good time. Maybe the only downside is that it's a bit trash heavy? Maybe? I can't complain much though.
  • Waycrest Manor - If you love Drustvar and the Drust related stuff, it's a real treat. Visually cool. Kinda cramped though, so camera issues sometimes. Honestly, though, they were aiming for the "Haunted Manison" vibe and nailed it. I really enjoyed it and would happily do it again and again.
  • Temple of Sethraliss - Seemed pretty forgettable, to be honest. Aesthetically pleasing at least since I like Setherrak stuff.
  • Freehold - My favorite thus far. Very trash heavy, but I didn't feel it detracted much. You can make a boss fight easier by chasing a dog to get a key (definitely a reference to the Pirates of the Carribean ride). Overall, I liked it a lot. The arena fight was great especially.

Haven't done any of the others yet though.
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  #5962  
Old 07-01-2018, 01:38 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Is it an excuse for the writers to do a bad job? Of course it is not, whatever the concept, they should strive to make their work as good as possible. But that doesn't change the fact that strictly conceptually, having more tribal night elves affiliated with the Horde (ie not necessarily part of) would have been better than what we got in Classic.

However, when it comes to me personally, I believe the best way (strictly from a lore perspective, so no game design etc involved in this opinion) would have been to have the Kaldorei fracture into a larger number of polities after the Third War, some staying isolationist, some Alliance, some Horde affiliated. Especially if they had followed with the whole civilization vs. primalism theme for the Alliance vs. the Horde, more imperialist Kaldorei disillusioned with Stormrage's ways and wishing to return to the old days would have been a good fit for the Alliance.
That might fit with Fandral and Maiev being around (especially Maiev). The two can actually have enough clout to defy Tyrande and Malfurion's wishes.

One big failure with the NEs is that they lost Illidan and Maiev until recently, who both provided a conflicting stance to Malfurion and Tyrande. They might have tried to achieve something similiar with Fandral, he didn't get enough spotlight before he turned raid boss.
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  #5963  
Old 07-01-2018, 04:00 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Is it an excuse for the writers to do a bad job? Of course it is not, whatever the concept, they should strive to make their work as good as possible. But that doesn't change the fact that strictly conceptually, having more tribal night elves affiliated with the Horde (ie not necessarily part of) would have been better than what we got in Classic.

However, when it comes to me personally, I believe the best way (strictly from a lore perspective, so no game design etc involved in this opinion) would have been to have the Kaldorei fracture into a larger number of polities after the Third War, some staying isolationist, some Alliance, some Horde affiliated. Especially if they had followed with the whole civilization vs. primalism theme for the Alliance vs. the Horde, more imperialist Kaldorei disillusioned with Stormrage's ways and wishing to return to the old days would have been a good fit for the Alliance.
That's certainly an interesting idea, although, I don't see why they would split to the point where they would war with each other - as them fracturing into Horde and Alliance factions would suggest. The conflict absolutely deserved better attention - I would have liked to have seen some acknowledgement of a conflict between adaptation and tradition.

-------------

Also, kind of related note. I'm beginning to learn of post-burning quests in Darkshore, which is new content that I didn't think we'd see. New information (not edits to previously issued draft content) is coming in as I type this - so my departure date will have to be pushed back.
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  #5964  
Old 07-02-2018, 02:37 AM
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Does WoW's expansions follow the Star Trek rule? Every odd-numbered expansion is shit? So this shit-list would include Burning Crusade (bikewreck), Cataclysm (carwreck), Warlords of Draenor (trainwreck), and now Battle for Azeroth (possible planecrash?).

Whereas the more lauded expansions would include Wrath of the Lich King, Mists of Pandaria, and Legion.
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  #5965  
Old 07-02-2018, 03:26 AM
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Does WoW's expansions follow the Star Trek rule? Every odd-numbered expansion is shit? So this shit-list would include Burning Crusade (bikewreck), Cataclysm (carwreck), Warlords of Draenor (trainwreck), and now Battle for Azeroth (possible planecrash?).

Whereas the more lauded expansions would include Wrath of the Lich King, Mists of Pandaria, and Legion.
From the Beta, I'm not feeling BfA will be that bad.

Won't talk about TBC because I wasn't playing then.
Cata had a good premise, a good start, a terrible story execution and lack of max level content.
WoD had a terrible premise, a good start, a terrible story execution and lack of max level content.
BfA so far seems to have a lackluster premise and a bad start, but there's no lack of max level content. Let's see how story execution goes as the patch cycle unfolds.
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  #5966  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:31 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Just a thought, what if the Night Elves conquered/reclaimed Suramar for their new Capital. It’s not as if Nightborne players actually use it for anything............

Would that help Night Elf fans?
I go very often to suramar, using my hearthstone

and I always see many players nightborne is a good place for RP.

the night elves have to recover their capital not steal the capital of another race
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  #5967  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:58 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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My main problem with the ren'dorei is their introduction. Much of the rejection towards void elves could have been avoided (pun intended) if the recruitment storyline had more care put into it.

And there's still a ton of basic questions about them that Blizzard hasn't answered, and no new playable race should need to wait that long to be fleshed out.

About the future, I'm not sure what Blizzard will do with high/void elves. I'd guess they'll eventually be merged into a single, but I don't see how that could happen right now.
I see many people just complaining about the aesthetics and saying that if they had blond hair and fair-skinned they would be fine with them.

the blond and fair-skinned elves are playable already
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  #5968  
Old 07-02-2018, 08:00 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I see many people just complaining about the aesthetics and saying that if they had blond hair and fair-skinned they would be fine with them.

the blond and fair-skinned elves are playable already
Well, in fairness, we have three different purple elves that all look different... can't be that hard to make a blonde and fair-skinned elf race with its own unique model.

I don't care for Void Elves being blonde, but there's now more than enough precedent for them to look more like Alleria as evidenced by the fact that a new generation of Void Elves are being tutored and taking in the Void in a much more similar way to her and not the same way as the currently playable Void Elves.
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  #5969  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:56 AM
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Well, in fairness, we have three different purple elves that all look different... can't be that hard to make a blonde and fair-skinned elf race with its own unique model.
Yeah, the Nightborne had what 10k+ years of Nightwell usage to diverge from their Keldorei kin? So how much would physical divergence would you expect from 10 years of mostly a cultural divergence between blood and high elves?
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  #5970  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:56 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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Well, in fairness, we have three different purple elves that all look different... can't be that hard to make a blonde and fair-skinned elf race with its own unique model.

I don't care for Void Elves being blonde, but there's now more than enough precedent for them to look more like Alleria as evidenced by the fact that a new generation of Void Elves are being tutored and taking in the Void in a much more similar way to her and not the same way as the currently playable Void Elves.
You could say that the blonde hair in the elves is the faction flavor of the horde, the nightborne can choose blond hair
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:09 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Yeah, the Nightborne had what 10k+ years of Nightwell usage to diverge from their Keldorei kin? So how much would physical divergence would you expect from 10 years of mostly a cultural divergence between blood and high elves?
A different lifestyle can lead to a different body type in a few years. Sure, it would mean new hair and skin colors, but other cultural traits, like hairstyles, would apply.

And, in the case of nightborne, they are not THAT different. Males are slimmer, females have a different posture. Aside from that, skin colors and slightly different ears.

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I see many people just complaining about the aesthetics and saying that if they had blond hair and fair-skinned they would be fine with them.

the blond and fair-skinned elves are playable already
"Many people" does not equal to "everyone".

People reject void elves because their introduction was shitty. There was no build up for familiarity or they are not different enough from blood elves. That's why people automatically want what is familiar to them.

I've posted in many places suggestions on void elves that do not rely on giving them high elf features nor making high elves playable.

But I won't delve into it here, as I don't think this is the right thread for that discussion.

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You could say that the blonde hair in the elves is the faction flavor of the horde, the nightborne can choose blond hair
One of my suggestions for nightborne is true blonde hair, BTW. Others include bright blue and light blue hair. And white (very light grey) and black (very dark grey) skin colors.

But I demand tatoos for void elves, as well as deep red, silver white and black hair colors.

(Also want black and real blonde hair for Lightforged Space Goats, as well as a light golden skin color)
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  #5972  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:25 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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A different lifestyle can lead to a different body type in a few years. Sure, it would mean new hair and skin colors, but other cultural traits, like hairstyles, would apply.

And, in the case of nightborne, they are not THAT different. Males are slimmer, females have a different posture. Aside from that, skin colors and slightly different ears.


"Many people" does not equal to "everyone".

People reject void elves because their introduction was shitty. There was no build up for familiarity or they are not different enough from blood elves. That's why people automatically want what is familiar to them.

I've posted in many places suggestions on void elves that do not rely on giving them high elf features nor making high elves playable.

But I won't delve into it here, as I don't think this is the right thread for that discussion.



One of my suggestions for nightborne is true blonde hair, BTW. Others include bright blue and light blue hair. And white (very light grey) and black (very dark grey) skin colors.

But I demand tatoos for void elves, as well as deep red, silver white and black hair colors.

(Also want black and real blonde hair for Lightforged Space Goats, as well as a light golden skin color)
what different lifestyle can there be between the high elves and the blood elves? they are the same race in all respects there is no lifestyle that differentiates them.

If you told me that the high elves began to live in a desert, I could believe that their lifestyle and skin color may be different.

but the known high elves live in dalaran or in Quel'Danil, that is, some live in a big city such as silvermoon and others in an Outpost ranger such as Farstrider Enclave
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:29 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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what different lifestyle can there be between the high elves and the blood elves? they are the same race in all respects there is no lifestyle that differentiates them.

If you told me that the high elves began to live in a desert, I could believe that their lifestyle and skin color may be different.

but the known high elves live in dalaran or in Quel'Danil, that is, some live in a big city such as silvermoon and others in an Outpost ranger such as Farstrider Enclave
Last I heard, there were no wildhammer dwarves, draenei or humans sharing their culture in Silvermoon or Farstrider Enclave.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:33 AM
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A different lifestyle can lead to a different body type in a few years. Sure, it would mean new hair and skin colors, but other cultural traits, like hairstyles, would apply.
What differences in lifestyle would spur such significant physiological differences between blood and high elves?

From everything that we have seen thus far? Nothing. Especially given that high elves have been welcomed to return to the restored Sunwell for years now.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:54 AM
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From the Beta, I'm not feeling BfA will be that bad.

Won't talk about TBC because I wasn't playing then.
Cata had a good premise, a good start, a terrible story execution and lack of max level content.
WoD had a terrible premise, a good start, a terrible story execution and lack of max level content.
BfA so far seems to have a lackluster premise and a bad start, but there's no lack of max level content. Let's see how story execution goes as the patch cycle unfolds.
I disagree.

Even forgetting everything else, this is the first expansion where i've seen the forum masses griping about core gameplay en masse. I don't think a bad story or even a lack of content cannot be overcome but im skeptical when something as fundamental as basic class gameplay has finally caught the ire of the masses. People seem to finally be fucking sick of "pruning" and the overall standard of taking complexity away over and over again and every spec that didn't directly get a rework seems to have suffered. Azerite gear and its associated system is also not inspiring confidence. Add to that the recent outrage at a good chunk of specs being told directly via QnA to "wait for a patch" and we're not off to a good start. I'd posit many such problems are likely outside the scope of even a strong .1 patch.

I've been hating the class design direction for YEARS but this is the first time i seem to be seeing the average user agreeing with me. I don't expect that'll end well for retention.
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alliance whining, azeroth literally dying, battle for azeroth, for the whored, gilgoblins, mop 2.0 sucks, mop sucks, more like cata 2.0 sucks, quilboar bias, world of warcraft

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