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  #6101  
Old 07-23-2018, 10:45 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Daelin did quite a few things wrong. First and foremost: basically staging a coup against his own daughter and completely disregarding her opinions.

Yes, in hindsight it turned out that, while there are some good people in the Horde, the Horde can't really be trusted. And there's nothing wrong with Jaina and other characters who previously disagreed with Daelin's actions to agree with him now.

But we, the players, should know better than letting ourselves get swept up in the romanticist view of Daelin that gets shown in Battle for Azeroth.
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  #6102  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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It's an excellent artistic piece and good singing by Laura Bailey, did not know she had such talent.

It's still ultimately made redundant by the Jaina comic weeks ago. We know all this already, why does it have to be repeated to us again instead of showing us some things we don't know is going on with other characters?

I will give credit that this painted her in a darker light unlike the previous comic that seemed to portray her more sympathetically. It does give hints that she could be going down a pretty dark road later in the story. The more I think on it though, behind all the waves of the usual bitching about the faction war story, the more I understand that Jaina's role should have been filled out by Genn or Tyrande while Jaina should be what Anduin currently is. Kind of a wasted opportunity, but oh well I guess.
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  #6103  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:14 PM
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  #6104  
Old 07-24-2018, 12:02 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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If Warcraft didn't have dev shields then the Horde would be dead or savagely brutalized into impotence ala Japan. Daelin and Jaina should be the rule among Alliance leaders, not just strawmen there for the likes of Anduin to point at and bark that It's NOT OUR WAY or something.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Jaina was a citizen of Dalaran, acting under Antonidas' final orders to save as many of those refugees as she could and take them somewhere safe
Still subject to both his rule as Kul'tiras' lord and command as leader of the the Alliance's naval forces. At the minimum she should have no authority over his when it comes to Kul'tiran troops.

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Daelin showed up and said "fuck that, nobody gets to be safe, it's everyone's duty to fight and die for my revenge."
The Alliance was at war with Thrall's Horde.

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Like so many of the petty playerbase who insist that their leaders should chuck countless soldiers into the meat grinder for the sake of faction pride ('cuz who really cares about footmen or grunts? It's not like soldiers are people, right?), he didn't care about saving lives. He only cared about killing orcs, even if that meant throwing away human lives to do it.
Are you implying the Greenskins ever not jumped at the chance to kill or wound Pinkskins?

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Oh, and calling Thrall the exception is ignoring other orcish characters.
Other Orc characters just deflect responsibility if they even admit they actually did something to make the Alliance mad at them.


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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I will give credit that this painted her in a darker light unlike the previous comic that seemed to portray her more sympathetically. It does give hints that she could be going down a pretty dark road later in the story. The more I think on it though, behind all the waves of the usual bitching about the faction war story, the more I understand that Jaina's role should have been filled out by Genn or Tyrande while Jaina should be what Anduin currently is. Kind of a wasted opportunity, but oh well I guess.
What, and miss an opportunity to do yet another retread of Sarah Kerrigan?

Also, you know as as well as I do that the devs would never let a non-Human be so important. It's a Human run faction. Non-Humans roles depend on what Humans get from them (Draenei get to show up nowadays since Velen is Anduin's mentor, Worgen have Genn being Anduin's bad cop and are also the Forsaken's rivals).

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  #6105  
Old 07-24-2018, 12:19 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Still subject to both his rule as Kul'tiras' lord and command as leader of the the Alliance's naval forces. At the minimum she should have no authority over his when it comes to Kul'tiran troops.
Nope.

Separation of authority over the citizenry and soldiers of their respective kingdoms was a huge sticking point in the foundation of the Alliance. It was why they made Lothar - who was at that point basically bereft of a functional kingdom - Supreme Allied Commander instead of one of themselves or their own generals. None of the kingdoms was willing to go along with the whole thing if it meant the sovereign of any of the other kingdoms could exercise authority overruling theirs.

Being lord of Kul'tiras is exactly why he wouldn't be suffered to overrule Jaina when she was placed in charge of the exodus by Antonidas. The Alliance kings expressly rejected the idea of any of their number being able to undermine or override the authority of the rest.

(Incidentally, this is also one of the many reasons the High King is a stupid concept. Putting the sovereign ruler of Stormwind in charge of the joint armies of the Alliance implicitly strips the sovereignty of the other nations. Anyone but the ruler of a kingdom should lead those armies; letting the actual king hold that role is a fundamental usurpation. It should be no more tolerable than if the President of the U.S. actually tried to name himself Commander in Chief of every country in NATO.)

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-24-2018 at 12:23 AM..
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  #6106  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:39 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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I feel like the short threw a few things at us without bothering to explain anything.

Like, who was the ghostly boatman? I get that ship is supposed to be Daelin's but... where was Jaina able to find it and who sank it in the first place? Did she sail all the way from Kul Tiras to the shores of Kalimdor on a fucking boat? Or are those the ruins of Theramore? How was she able to raise the ship -- did she lift up the ship itself or was she able to accomplish it solely through water manipulation? Is she Avatar-tier power levels now?
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  #6107  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
I feel like the short threw a few things at us without bothering to explain anything.

Like, who was the ghostly boatman? I get that ship is supposed to be Daelin's but... where was Jaina able to find it and who sank it in the first place? Did she sail all the way from Kul Tiras to the shores of Kalimdor on a fucking boat? Or are those the ruins of Theramore? How was she able to raise the ship -- did she lift up the ship itself or was she able to accomplish it solely through water manipulation? Is she Avatar-tier power levels now?
-Her father. We don’t know how or why. My guesses are that it’s an echo of him, her own imaginings, or part of a spell to track down his boat using his necklace.

-Off the coast of Kalimdor near Theramore. I assume either the Horde during the battle with the Kul Tirans or Theramore after said battle sank it.

-Probably not. She can teleport and odds are that there are some rowboats still in tact at Theramore.

-Those are indeed the ruins of Theramore.

-Mages are known to levitate things and control gravity. See: Dalaran and Kael
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  #6108  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:04 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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[quote=Nazja;1620857]Daelin did quite a few things wrong. First and foremost: basically staging a coup against his own daughter and completely disregarding her opinions.

Yes, in hindsight it turned out that, while there are some good people in the Horde, the Horde can't really be trusted. And there's nothing wrong with Jaina and other characters who previously disagreed with Daelin's actions to agree with him now.[quote]

I agree with everything you said there.

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But we, the players, should know better than letting ourselves get swept up in the romanticist view of Daelin that gets shown in Battle for Azeroth.
But not with this.

Back then, Admiral Proudmoore seemed to be wrong. He was wrong in initiating conflict, he was wrong in disregarding Jaina's opinion, he was wrong in taking command of Theramore, and he was wrong about some of the elements of the Horde. But, as time showed, he was right that the Horde would go back to its warmongering ways in time.

And no one can even say that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, as his death was a sacrifice made by Jaina to stop the cycle of hatred. Except that the cycle went on, and now we are in the second war since then. Since then, Alliance lost Southshore, Gilneas, Theramore and Teldrassil to the Horde.

So, we may condemn Daelin's actions back then, but, even doing wrong things, he was ultimately right in his motivations.

He was so right that his daughter, who wanted nothing but peace, changed to honor his legacy.

I've talked about this before, but I always felt wrong that the Horde killed Admiral Proudmoore. Thrall should have captured him and made him prisoner, akin to the way the Alliance treated Doomhammer. Maybe, in time, each could see the point of view of the other and move past hatred. But, when the Horde aimed to kill Proudmoore, it just assured that the orcs were still barbarians, and that Daelin was right about their nature.

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I feel like the short threw a few things at us without bothering to explain anything.

Like, who was the ghostly boatman? I get that ship is supposed to be Daelin's but... where was Jaina able to find it and who sank it in the first place? Did she sail all the way from Kul Tiras to the shores of Kalimdor on a fucking boat? Or are those the ruins of Theramore? How was she able to raise the ship -- did she lift up the ship itself or was she able to accomplish it solely through water manipulation? Is she Avatar-tier power levels now?
IMO, most of the short is just poetic imagery. Art.

Jaina visited Theramore, rowed to ship and raised it from the sea. The ghosts, the corpses and everything else are just representation of her regrets.

It would make no sense for those swords to be there, nor the corpses in the water. It's been at least 3 years since Theramore was bombed, and over a decade since Daelin's demise.

This is like those Disney movies, in which the plot moves forward during a song, and you scratch your head thinking which parts of the musical scene were real and which were not.
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  #6109  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:26 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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Her last words to her father "Father, Why didn't you listen" in Warcraft 3

"I'm listening now, Father"

This video was perfect.
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  #6110  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:27 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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@Deicide:
He turned out to be right, but at the same time not really.

He wasn't wise or knowledgeable. He did have insights into the orcish nature that Jaina or Thrall lacked.

He was still simply a xenophobe who happened to be proven right. He might as well have been flipping coins.
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  #6111  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:50 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Separation of authority over the citizenry and soldiers of their respective kingdoms was a huge sticking point in the foundation of the Alliance. It was why they made Lothar - who was at that point basically bereft of a functional kingdom - Supreme Allied Commander instead of one of themselves or their own generals. None of the kingdoms was willing to go along with the whole thing if it meant the sovereign of any of the other kingdoms could exercise authority overruling theirs.
Jaina wasn't a serious sovereign. Just a sidskick following a now dead man's orders. Antonidas' word should only apply to Dalaran's troops/refugees.

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Being lord of Kul'tiras is exactly why he wouldn't be suffered to overrule Jaina when she was placed in charge of the exodus by Antonidas. The Alliance kings expressly rejected the idea of any of their number being able to undermine or override the authority of the rest.
Again, the Alliance was at war with Thrall's Neo-Nazis. None of its proper leadership by TFT's start (Varian or Bolvar, Daelin, one of the Dwarf Lords, Kael'thas) ever agreed to a ceasefire or treaty. Jaina wouldn't have the authority to just declare the Alliance's war on filthy Greenskins over.

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  #6112  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:46 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Daelin did quite a few things wrong. First and foremost: basically staging a coup against his own daughter and completely disregarding her opinions.

Yes, in hindsight it turned out that, while there are some good people in the Horde, the Horde can't really be trusted. And there's nothing wrong with Jaina and other characters who previously disagreed with Daelin's actions to agree with him now.

But we, the players, should know better than letting ourselves get swept up in the romanticist view of Daelin that gets shown in Battle for Azeroth.
This is true of course, though it also makes sense for the Kul Tirans to have such a view.
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  #6113  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:39 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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This is true of course, though it also makes sense for the Kul Tirans to have such a view.
Indeed.

It's just us, who have the benefit of objectivity and not being the victims of orcs, who should look at him with a more critical eye.
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  #6114  
Old 07-24-2018, 01:28 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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There have been some changes to the War of Thorns quests so that the events mostly line up between both sides:

-The part where the Horde has rounded up all the civilians into Astranaar's town square and mass executed them has been removed. Instead Delaryn just mentions that a couple civilians were killed during the assault. They also removed Saurfang's line about not killing civilians, so there's no longer any disconnect with him standing in Astranaar with dead civilians.

-The Horde's capture of Blackwood Den is different. The Horde showed up, kept killing furbolgs until the remainder fled, then took over. The furbolgs are no longer enslaved by the Horde or peacefully recruited via a duel. They're just fleeing Blackwood Den, scared and confused.
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  #6115  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:30 PM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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But, as time showed, he was right that the Horde would go back to its warmongering ways in time.

And no one can even say that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, as his death was a sacrifice made by Jaina to stop the cycle of hatred. Except that the cycle went on, and now we are in the second war since then. Since then, Alliance lost Southshore, Gilneas, Theramore and Teldrassil to the Horde.

So, we may condemn Daelin's actions back then, but, even doing wrong things, he was ultimately right in his motivations.
This whole warmongering (watch my words, warmongering, not some skirmishes) happened BECAUSE of Daelin's attack.

Ofcourse he is right now, because he, through his actions made it happen in the long run.

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@Deicide:
He turned out to be right, but at the same time not really.

He wasn't wise or knowledgeable. He did have insights into the orcish nature that Jaina or Thrall lacked.

He was still simply a xenophobe who happened to be proven right. He might as well have been flipping coins.
Exactly this. At that particular moment in history, he was wrong and was driven by old hatred - but this don't proves he was correct then.
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  #6116  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
There have been some changes to the War of Thorns quests so that the events mostly line up between both sides:

-The part where the Horde has rounded up all the civilians into Astranaar's town square and mass executed them has been removed. Instead Delaryn just mentions that a couple civilians were killed during the assault. They also removed Saurfang's line about not killing civilians, so there's no longer any disconnect with him standing in Astranaar with dead civilians.

-The Horde's capture of Blackwood Den is different. The Horde showed up, kept killing furbolgs until the remainder fled, then took over. The furbolgs are no longer enslaved by the Horde or peacefully recruited via a duel. They're just fleeing Blackwood Den, scared and confused.
I noticed. The event was polished and improved in some parts.

Another change I noticed is that the cutscene where Malfurion zaps Sylvanas only plays for the Horde. It's way better that way, since, from Horde PoV, Malfurion causes a distraction and runs, but when it played to Alliance it was as if he had incapacitaded her without seizing opportunity to end her.

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This whole warmongering (watch my words, warmongering, not some skirmishes) happened BECAUSE of Daelin's attack.

Ofcourse he is right now, because he, through his actions made it happen in the long run.
That's not true at all. Jaina sacrificed him to the Horde to stop the cycle. The Horde retreated and the Alliance even forgave Jaina and never retaliated (reason why Kul Tiras left it).

To blame Daelin for the current wars is to ignore the whole point of Jaina's sacrifice. Daelin's actions had zero to do with Garrosh's or Sylvanas' wars.

The whole reason the current situation paints him as a hero is that Jaina's sacrifice was in vain, and peace never happened because the Horde kept coming back for war.

I wouldn't be surprised if, this time, it's someone in the Horde that decides to betray its leaders in order to save the Alliance, thus making it full circle. Maybe Saurfang will finally have his warrior death... as an Alliance hero.
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  #6117  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:18 PM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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That's not true at all. Jaina sacrificed him to the Horde to stop the cycle. The Horde retreated and the Alliance even forgave Jaina and never retaliated (reason why Kul Tiras left it).
Yeah... Listen, just because you write something here, it doesn't mean it is universal truth. "Alliance" at that time had to deal with Lordaeron's plague, Stormwind's new regency etc. They didn't have time to care for some distant Theramore.

And Kul Tiras left Alliance, but didn't stop attacking Horde. That what was starting point of WoW. If you disagree about that - prove it.

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To blame Daelin for the current wars is to ignore the whole point of Jaina's sacrifice. Daelin's actions had zero to do with Garrosh's or Sylvanas' wars.
Of course it had directly zero connections. It had indirect consequences - if Daelin would hold his horses, we would have COMPLETELY different lore now and you could not tell, that Garrosh or Sylvanas would do anything.

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The whole reason the current situation paints him as a hero is that Jaina's sacrifice was in vain, and peace never happened because the Horde kept coming back for war.
Yeeeeaaaah, right. And that was Horde, who attacked Kul Tiras in first place, correct? You know, after Archimonde and stuff?
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  #6118  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:29 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Yeah... Listen, just because you write something here, it doesn't mean it is universal truth. "Alliance" at that time had to deal with Lordaeron's plague, Stormwind's new regency etc. They didn't have time to care for some distant Theramore.

And Kul Tiras left Alliance, but didn't stop attacking Horde. That what was starting point of WoW. If you disagree about that - prove it.
WHat about dialogue in Stormwind that shows Kul Tiras left the Alliance because of Jaina? It's a big point in this expansion, you know. Kul Tiras left because the Alliance wouldn't go fight the Horde in Kalimdor to avenge Daelin. It's lore.

And Jaina sacrificing was the deal to stop the conflict. It led into the cold war during the start of WoW. Which endured until the Wrath Gate. Alliance blamed the Horde and invaded Undercity, and again Jaina stopped the conflict by teleporting the Alliance away after it had defeated the Undercity rebels and before it came to blows with the actual Horde.

And then Garrosh started another war. Which the Alliance ended by helping the Darkspear Rebellian retake Orgrimmar and making a deal with Warchief Vol'jin.

And then Sylvanas started another war.

It's canon. I'm not making things up.

Quote:
Of course it had directly zero connections. It had indirect consequences - if Daelin would hold his horses, we would have COMPLETELY different lore now and you could not tell, that Garrosh or Sylvanas would do anything.
The whole point of Jaina betraying Daelin was so Thrall would spare Theramore, and he did. Then the Alliance never retaliated Daelin's death.

To say the later conflicts are indirect consequences of Daelin's actions is just false. Quoting you: "If you disagree about that - prove it."

Quote:
Yeeeeaaaah, right. And that was Horde, who attacked Kul Tiras in first place, correct? You know, after Archimonde and stuff?
What point of "Jaina betrayed her father to stop that conflict, and the Alliance never retaliated, which led to Kul Tiras leaving" you didn't understand?
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  #6119  
Old 07-24-2018, 05:50 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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So how long are we going to pretend the Horde was never hostile to the Alliance before Daelin tried to end the Greenskin threat before it started again?
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  #6120  
Old 07-24-2018, 11:39 PM
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I just realized some of the Darkshore event music has WCII leitmotifs in them.
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  #6121  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:29 PM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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WHat about dialogue in Stormwind that shows Kul Tiras left the Alliance because of Jaina? It's a big point in this expansion, you know. Kul Tiras left because the Alliance wouldn't go fight the Horde in Kalimdor to avenge Daelin. It's lore.
Which dialogue? I'm not able to follow every retcon Blizzard makes nowadays.

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And Jaina sacrificing was the deal to stop the conflict. It led into the cold war during the start of WoW. Which endured until the Wrath Gate. Alliance blamed the Horde and invaded Undercity, and again Jaina stopped the conflict by teleporting the Alliance away after it had defeated the Undercity rebels and before it came to blows with the actual Horde.

And then Garrosh started another war. Which the Alliance ended by helping the Darkspear Rebellian retake Orgrimmar and making a deal with Warchief Vol'jin.

And then Sylvanas started another war.

It's canon. I'm not making things up.

The whole point of Jaina betraying Daelin was so Thrall would spare Theramore, and he did. Then the Alliance never retaliated Daelin's death.
You forgot one tiny moment in Warcraft lore, which I pointed at the beginning of our conversation - Jaina's sacrifice happened ONLY because her father's actions lead up to point, when Thrall HAD to attack Theramore. This conflict happend ONLY because of Kul Tiras' attack on freshly settled Horde.

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To say the later conflicts are indirect consequences of Daelin's actions is just false. Quoting you: "If you disagree about that - prove it."
See above. But to simplify this (I'm not going to delve into details here):

1. Archimonde with Mt Hyjal.
2. Peace between Horde, Jaina and NElves.
3. Horde settling in Durotan, Orgrimmar.
4. Kul Tiranian attack on Horde, because of ol' hatred.
5. Conflict.
6. Jaina is betraying her father to stop the conflict.
7. Cold War, as you beatifully described.
8. Rest of story.

If you can't comprehend, that point 4 comes before point 6 on above list, then we are done here.

So yes, our current conflict is indirect consequence of Daelin, who couldn't stop his personal vendetta.

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What point of "Jaina betrayed her father to stop that conflict, and the Alliance never retaliated, which led to Kul Tiras leaving" you didn't understand?
See above. What point of "Daelin unprovoked attacked Horde, only because of his personal vendetta, which lead to events we have today" you didn't understand?

Or maybe Blizzard retconned Daelin's attack too? And made it, that Horde attacked first? Hmm?
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  #6122  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:38 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Which dialogue? I'm not able to follow every retcon Blizzard makes nowadays.
It's the Kul Tiras intro quest in BfA. Jaina suggests they recruit Kul Tiras to fight the Horde. Anduin and Genn aren't very enthusiastic at first because Kul Tiras hasn't been part of the Alliance in years and has made it clear they want nothing to do with them. Jaina says she'll go in person as a show of good faith, Genn says that's an even worse idea because "Jaina, you're the reason they left the Alliance."
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  #6123  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:48 PM
GIPlayer GIPlayer is offline

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It's the Kul Tiras intro quest in BfA. Jaina suggests they recruit Kul Tiras to fight the Horde. Anduin and Genn aren't very enthusiastic at first because Kul Tiras hasn't been part of the Alliance in years and has made it clear they want nothing to do with them. Jaina says she'll go in person as a show of good faith, Genn says that's an even worse idea because "Jaina, you're the reason they left the Alliance."
Thank you for that piece of information.
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  #6124  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:40 PM
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4. Kul Tiranian attack on Horde, because of ol' hatred.
5. Conflict.
6. Jaina is betraying her father to stop the conflict.
Even you acknowledge that Jaina's sacrifice was in order to end the conflict. And that's why you can't blame Daelin's actions on what comes later, Jaina made that decision so the cycle of hatred could be halted.

The next time Alliance and Horde come into conflict, Jaina again stops the bloodshed, this time before it begins, thus ensuring peace.

So, until the end of WotLK, twice the Alliance almost broke the peace, only for Jaina to stop it. But once the Horde betrays that peace and starts not one, but two big wars (not just border skirmishes), Jaina's efforts to stop the cycle are made pointless. The wheel kept spinning anyway.

And this is what I can't stand: people (usually Horde players) belittling Jaina's sacrifices and anger. She made everything in power, sacrifice things dear to her, to have peace, and the Horde spit on her efforts. Thus, the Horde confirmed Daelin's PoV. There can be no peace.

At least until the Horde sacrifices something for it. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if the one to sacrifice something this time ends up being Saurfang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIPlayer View Post
Thank you for that piece of information.
The Jaina comic from a few weeks back also confirms it. "When we asked for their [Alliance] help to avenge Daelin's murder, they spat on our faces", Katherine says as reason to not join again the Alliance.
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Last edited by Deicide; 07-25-2018 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 07-25-2018, 03:09 PM
Pepe Stormstout Pepe Stormstout is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
The Jaina comic from a few weeks back also confirms it. "When we asked for their [Alliance] help to avenge Daelin's murder, they spat on our faces", Katherine says as reason to not join again the Alliance.
Also Chronicle Volume 3 a while before that.
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