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  #176  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:07 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Kyalin, you were making a broad, general statement about writing and I simply clarified it does not apply absolutely. There was no "but we are specifically talking about...".

Anyway, since you still seem to miss that my examples were supposed to show the battle.net text is not absolute, and I am not sure if it is me not conveying it properly, so let me reiterate. Do you consider the existence of dwarf and elf death knights from the Third War a retcon since the manual described them as formerly humans? Do you consider the existence the existence of non-human and female necromancers from the Third War a retcon since the manual described them as men of Dalaran? Do you consider the existence of non-Burning Blade blademasters a retcon since the manual describes them as part of it?
Sorry for not getting tot his earlier.

On Death Knights, yes, if you're referring to something that was supposed to have existed in the Third War and not having originated from Arthas's third generation of death knights.

On Necromancers, if you're claiming they existed during the Third War, yes, and I make the same claim about female druids. If things change and LATER there are female and non-human necromancers of the variety that were used by the scourge, then that's an update.

On Blademasters, also yes, again, unless these relate to Blademasters that came into existence after the time the manual was describing.
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  #177  
Old 07-02-2019, 01:31 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Ah, so you generally take these origin stories as absolute and without room for an expansion in the entirety of the Third War. A rather unusual interpretation as far as I can see, but at least you are getting consistent.

Generally, these things are not considered retcons (or are considered soft retcons as opposed to hard retcons), they expand the universe in a sensible and logical way. Yes, the original band of Arthas' knights might have been human men as these had followed him into Northrend, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain the same the entire duration of the Third War as the Scourge consumed other nations and lands. The same with the necromancers, they might have started as a band of male Kirin Tor renegades following Kel'Thuzad, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain that way as the Cult grew in size and influence. And in this vein, the same with the dark rangers, they might have started as high elf only as Quel'Thalas was the very first elven kingom the Scourge invaded, but it would not have made much sense for them to stop raising elves after that, including Kalimdor.

But in the end, this exercise is quite moot as of now, since we do not even know if there will be a night elf dark ranger skin. The one we have seen could be a high elf one as much as a night elf one, we only know it is the Dark Ranger model for sure.
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  #178  
Old 07-02-2019, 06:47 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Ah, so you generally take these origin stories as absolute and without room for an expansion in the entirety of the Third War. A rather unusual interpretation as far as I can see, but at least you are getting consistent.

Generally, these things are not considered retcons (or are considered soft retcons as opposed to hard retcons), they expand the universe in a sensible and logical way. Yes, the original band of Arthas' knights might have been human men as these had followed him into Northrend, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain the same the entire duration of the Third War as the Scourge consumed other nations and lands. The same with the necromancers, they might have started as a band of male Kirin Tor renegades following Kel'Thuzad, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain that way as the Cult grew in size and influence. And in this vein, the same with the dark rangers, they might have started as high elf only as Quel'Thalas was the very first elven kingom the Scourge invaded, but it would not have made much sense for them to stop raising elves after that, including Kalimdor.

But in the end, this exercise is quite moot as of now, since we do not even know if there will be a night elf dark ranger skin. The one we have seen could be a high elf one as much as a night elf one, we only know it is the Dark Ranger model for sure.
You can supply that explanation, but if it didn't exist in the first place I'm still going to call it a retcon. This is an unfortunate problem I think with retcons and other inconsistencies - where people will headcanon rationalizations and explanations in order to cover for gaps and leaps in logic that the writers made, and while I respect the idea that not everything is shown and that some things will usually be implied - there's a limit to that.

Although, yes, it is moot, because my primary reason for opposing Night Elf dark rangers isn't strictly lore based, it comes from my opposition to them trying to sneak the concepts introduced in 8.1 into acceptability - and given some of the ancillary details of the art-reveal fiasco, that's enough to disrupt any feeling of trust and comfort I may have had in the Reforged team, which wasn't strong to begin with.
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  #179  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:10 AM
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Generally, these things are not considered retcons (or are considered soft retcons as opposed to hard retcons), they expand the universe in a sensible and logical way. Yes, the original band of Arthas' knights might have been human men as these had followed him into Northrend, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain the same the entire duration of the Third War as the Scourge consumed other nations and lands. The same with the necromancers, they might have started as a band of male Kirin Tor renegades following Kel'Thuzad, but it would not have made much sense for them to remain that way as the Cult grew in size and influence. And in this vein, the same with the dark rangers, they might have started as high elf only as Quel'Thalas was the very first elven kingom the Scourge invaded, but it would not have made much sense for them to stop raising elves after that, including Kalimdor.
Well, arguably the Scourge being in Kalimdor doesn't really fit because we were shown and told in TFT that once the Legion took its helm, they basically stopped running the Scourge "properly," no longer continuing Ner'zhul's and Arthas' priorities of further strengthening its armies. They stopped maintaining the momentum of continuously killing more and more to grow the ranks, and they stopped elevating new champions to keep building its chain of command. Archimonde didn't really seem to be bothering with further swelling the Scourge's numbers when he invaded Kalimdor; he just used what he already had as a bludgeon to pave his way to Hyjal. Otherwise we'd have expected to be seeing indigenous Kalimdor undead all over the place, from night elves to tauren to harpies to centaur; instead the only localized undead that really appeared were the disturbed spirits in Felwood that had been awakened by the Legion's presence and corruption.

Archimonde wasn't running around empowering fancy new undead the way Ner'zhul and Arthas had been; he was just hurling the portion of the Scourge he'd commandeered at the night elves, as he would replace the Scourge with inexhaustible Legion reinforcements once he absorbed the World Tree's power and opened a new portal. As far as he was concerned, the Scourge's sole remaining purpose was to break the defenses of Hyjal. Continuing to strengthen the undead army he'd soon be disposing of anyway wasn't really part of the plan.
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  #180  
Old 07-02-2019, 03:08 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I do not remember The Frozen Throne stating they stopped raising their slain enemies, only that the Dreadlord trio "was running the Scourge into the ground". That could ultimately mean anything from simply not trying to enlarge their gains in the East (hence no known invasion of Khaz Modan etc) to just leaving the lands to rot. However, it tells us nothing of Kalimdor where the Scourge and Legion were engaging in an actual offensive. And from a military perspective, it is rather absurd the Legion would not exploit one of the Scourge's largest strengths, raising fallen enemy troopers, when engaging the only mortal enemy that has ever repelled them. Unless we imagine Tichondrius, Anetheron, Rage Winterchill and other actual Scourge commanders (unlike Archimonde who simply delegated the command of the Scourge forces to them) to be a bunch of incompetent idiots.

As for these races, there indeed should be small numbers of some of these just like of Kaldorei, but it is important to remember the Scourge never marched through the Barrens, only Azshara and Ashenvale, and that most of the Scourge and Legion forces in Kalimdor were wiped out, only a few escaping back east. As I mentioned before, I would have preferred their original ideas with northern Kalimdor shattered and infested with demons and corruption and the night elves fighting from Kalidar, but it is canon all the same and has been for many years. Just another victim of World of Warcraft's design and evolving storylines nerfing the RTS conflicts. Though the Third War is still not hit as hard as the first two.
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  #181  
Old 07-02-2019, 11:09 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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ARM is right.

That aside - I saw Judas Priest this weekend:
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  #182  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:02 AM
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Nice! I forgot they said they'd change their setlist. Pretty cool that they're doing The Sentinel, though it's one of those songs where you can hear Rob's gotten pretty old. Still not a bad take on it considering how demanding it is.
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  #183  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:24 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Nice! I forgot they said they'd change their setlist. Pretty cool that they're doing The Sentinel, though it's one of those songs where you can hear Rob's gotten pretty old. Still not a bad take on it considering how demanding it is.
You could tell that it was putting a strain on him - and his age I imagine changed the tenor of the entire show. Every one of his outfits looked like some kind of frock, and during instrumentals especially, he roamed the stage as though he were inspecting the work of the other members of the band. Though I imagine that was planned out and choreographed.

It still sounded amazing - and his scream is still not to be trifled with.
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  #184  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:02 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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So, let's talk about how to end BfA.

I've found myself recently and quite often getting involved in discussions about what I would like to see (which is the same in my opinion as "what would get me to resub") in the conclusion of BfA. I've seen various discussions to this effect and they seem to revolve around a number of themes, including drastic retcons, just ending it now and keeping everyone unsatisfied, ending the factions and/or throwing all of that worldbuilding out, killing all of our characters, and having us navigate a crapsack hellscape for the rest of our playtime (or what I see as the "Shadowlands" option).

Obviously, I am a fan of none of these.

Instead, I believe that the end to BfA must do the following:
1. It must establish the Alliance as a powerful, competent other faction that people want to play.
2. It must preserve the Horde and leave them with a sense of pride in who they are.
3. It must reverse almost a decade of damage rendered onto the Night Elves. (An onscreen reconquest of Ashenvale is a minimum requirement for this)
4. It must reverse the recent damage done to the Forsaken.
5. It must not involve the deaths of even more Horde characters (or if they are involved, that must be kept to a minimum, and must be balanced out).
6. It must not involve the death of Sylvanas Windrunner (as controversial as that is, I am increasingly convinced that she is too intertwined with the Forsaken to be removed.)
7. It must not "redeem" Sylvanas Windrunner. (This would be an insult to the other side and would send a bad message)
8. It must not ride on the back of hard retcons or impossible events (This franchise's suspension of disbelief is bad enough already)
9. It must leave all faction-based systems intact - that includes warmode. Accordingly, peace cannot be the result.

I also want it at exactly seventy-two degrees, no ice.

This is obviously a tall stack of seemingly contradictory requirements, but at work today I believe I've come up with a solution and I'd like to share it with you now.

-----

“This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now."

It was always a slim chance - but her master strategist had managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The Alliance was fractured, but not divided. Wounded, but far from destroyed. The army whose absence their plan depended on in the first place had returned, bolstering the sizeable pockets of resistance that the Horde offensive had initially chosen to bypass on its way through Ashenvale. The Archdruid Saurfang failed to kill, the now-empowered High Priestess who was also required to be absent for the Horde's offensive to succeed, and the world's most persistent Warden - who had recently destroyed yet another Val'kyr and effectively put a halt to the comparatively costly project of attempting to raise undead Kal'dorei - stood at its helm. The evacuation of Teldrassil was far more successful than previously thought - having filled every available inch of cobblestone in Stormwind and having spilled well out into Elwynn afterward <<Source: Elegy>> - and they were returning to support the war effort courtesy of the one fleet that was conspicuously absent from the Alliance's catastrophic losses off of Zandalar and at Naj'zatar. With the Horde's fleet in shambles it was free to ferry people, supplies, and munitions to create what anyone in her position would most fear.

A second front.

Sure, the Horde and the Alliance fleets were for now decimated, but how would Orgrimmar compete with the combined shipbuilding capacities of both Kul'Tiras and Stormwind? Zandalar could hold up an Aegis, but for how long? …. and would it be worth it?

That was the more important question now. How much had the Forsaken sacrificed already? Their city? The cream of their armies? Their homes? For them to be continually mistrusted even now? She knew that in hushed tones, the Orcs quietly had begun to blame the Forsaken for embroiling the Horde in another costly war - as though none of it was done for their benefit. … and then there were the disloyal, fermenting seeds of betrayal. The Tauren, Saurfang, Baine. Thrall had even returned. All they needed to do was show themselves and even if she DID have most of Orgrimmar on her side (a prospect that with each passing day was in doubt) - it would almost certainly be enough to collapse everything in around her.

But the Forsaken - they had always been loyal. They had always been at her side, and she knew full well what would happen to them without her. The Alliance had attacked the Undercity only, and had left a sizeable Forsaken presence in the East, true - but the vice was closing, and distracting her attention for the benefit of Orcs would eventually doom them to whatever devices the Alliance, and a resurgent Scarlet Crusade had in mind for them.

That was the day Sylvanas Windrunner quietly set aside her mantle as the Horde's Warchief. The Dark Lady was once again, and only ever again: The Banshee Queen.

------

Yeah, I suck at creative writing, sue me.

Anyway - the jist of this final patch/raid, etc. Is that Sylvanas is giving up on the Western Horde. She's going to have her loyalists smuggle her out of the capitol so that she can lead a glorious reconquest of Lordaeron. Her intent with this is simple: She's going to turn the plaguelands and anything else she can snap up into her personal shell - using her remaining Val'kyr to recruit as many scourge holdovers as she can. She is able to do this because the Alliance has largely turned its attention away from Lordaeron, and because the Argent Crusade has fractured - into Horde Loyalists, into a new Scarlet Crusade, and a small, sad band of idealists who have banded with a similarly shrunken Ebon Blade - leaving their other holdings up for grabs.

The forsaken take both plaguelands, Tirisfal, Silverpine, Alterac, and Hillsbrad, with most of the questing material happening in Silverpine and Hillsbrad - where among other things, Sylvanas stops an Alliance/Scarlet death squad from sending more of her people into a bonfire in the center of Tarren Mill. Her offensive is stopped that Thoradin's Wall, and the Greymane Wall. Even so, she ends up secure in her old position, making Stratholme her new capitol - and she has a message for Saurfang and the rest of the Horde: "you have other problems to deal with".

Those problems are the Night Elves, who are in the middle of an onscreen reconquest of their own. The Alliance has seen the value of their second front and is directing Ironforge to produce whatever the Night Elves can transport to the forests of Ashenvale, which have again become a bloody and losing war for the Horde. The new Warchief, Saurfang, finds himself in this position - having to deal with an enemy that keeps killing his emissaries, is not sparing fleeing Orcish settlers, and seems intent on razing Orgrimmar to the ground - despite Anduin's pleas for them not to (which are driving a wedge between the rest of the Alliance and the Kaldorei, although not everyone in the East shares Anduin's opinion either).

Saurfang manages to stop the Kaldorei offensive before it can spill into Azshara. The Kaldorei also cannot capitalize on their retaking of the Mor'shan Rampart, or the entrance into Stonetalon Mountains - they just don't do so well in the open, regardless of the cannons and gnomish technology they are importing (not that they're terribly great at using it anyway). But this doesn't stop the war, and he is forced to keep the Forsaken in the Horde - even if relations between the two sides are irrevocably damaged.

So too are relations between the Night Elves and Stormwind, who Sylvanas now thinks she can isolate. She obtains and leaks information that Anduin had been plotting with Saurfang, which, along with Anduin's pleas for sparing the Horde, cause an irreparable rift between the East and West in the Alliance as well. It doesn't break the union, but it does end much of the cooperation that once kept the Alliance together.

As for the war, it drags into a stalemate as N'zoth - set back but not defeated, contemplates his next move. As for that next move - it will take place in the next expansion, which will revamp selected zones to bring them in line with the world that this situation presents.

I look forward to any comments.
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  #185  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:40 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It's less terrible than what Blizzard will likely do, but it feels like there's too many hanging plot threads and as essential to the Forsaken's previous identity as she is, I feel it's more damaging to keep Sylvanas in the faction.

There's no... CLOSURE in the proposal, it's a stiff return to status quo and little actual growth or progress, moreover it's damaging to the Horde to just... let Sylvanas do whatever.
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  #186  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:59 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's less terrible than what Blizzard will likely do, but it feels like there's too many hanging plot threads and as essential to the Forsaken's previous identity as she is, I feel it's more damaging to keep Sylvanas in the faction.

There's no... CLOSURE in the proposal, it's a stiff return to status quo and little actual growth or progress, moreover it's damaging to the Horde to just... let Sylvanas do whatever.
I feel that you need to return to the status quo to preserve the major choices that people go for in the game - and as damaging as it is, I think it's less damaging than either getting rid of the Forsaken as a player or dismantling the Horde entirely - which are the only other sensible options in my estimation.
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  #187  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I feel that you need to return to the status quo to preserve the major choices that people go for in the game - and as damaging as it is, I think it's less damaging than either getting rid of the Forsaken as a player or dismantling the Horde entirely - which are the only other sensible options in my estimation.
I don't see how getting rid of Sylv equates to getting rid of Forsaken as players, if anything it finally frees them up to move out of her shadow.
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  #188  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:50 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I'm afraid that Kyalin's idea of an end in BFA might be ten times more satisfactory than what we'll actually end up getting.

Don't forget that there's a huge hint that we'll see some content in Mulgore before the end of the expac.
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  #189  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:50 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I don't see how getting rid of Sylv equates to getting rid of Forsaken as players, if anything it finally frees them up to move out of her shadow.
I think there has to be some idea of where they can move to that's actually been set up and isn't Calia. Right now I don't see it.
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  #190  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:29 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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World of Warcraft: Classic is upon us, and so too will be a lot of fascinating data. Blizzard's financial reporting, for example, will no longer be able to refer to changes as being solely due to "World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth", or they will have to parse out the data. But one interesting area of research I've found has to do with player populations.

"I would play a Night Elf, but after everything that's happened to them, I can't bring myself to" is a common complaint that I've heard, and certainly I will not be playing classic because I cannot disentangle the last ten years of awful lore from trying to recapture what it was like before then. But until now, there hasn't been data available to isolate the effects of presentation and marketing from racial abilities and class changes.

Until now - at least tentatively.

I started by pulling data from an r/WoW survey that asks players what they intend to play in classic, found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...reddit_update/

They were kind enough to provide the dataset in excel, so I threw that into a pivot table.

I then compared this data, cut by races and server types, to WoWCensus data, available using the Wayback machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050830...quickstats.php



The results are pretty stark:

Classic_data changes by Kyalin Raintree, on Flickr

To explain the color scheme for the overall change matrix:
Dark Green: Increase over 5%
Light Green: Increase between 0 & 5%
Orange: Decrease between 0 & -5%
Red: Decrease between -5% & -10%
Dark Red: Decrease of -10% or worse

For the relative change matrix:
Dark Green: Increase over 50%
Light Green: Increase between 25% & 50%
Yellow: Increase between 0% and 25%
Orange: Decrease between 0% & -25%
Red: Decrease between -25% & -50%
Dark Red: Decrease of -50% or worse

As you can see, the reds and dark reds are mostly happening to one race, and one race alone. The trolls have one red indicator, the worst that anyone else has is something in the orange category, but in absolute and relative terms, Night Elves have taken an immense hit, and I believe we have the marketing and presentation for the most part to blame for that.

Now, there are a few compounding factors to this. For one, the video game audience of 2005 is not the same as the one for 2019. Additionally the survey asked what people WOULD play - and that assessment might not survive a few months of the reality of vanilla actually settling in. Regardless, a 10% absolute drop and a 45% relative drop is still immense, on its own and in comparison. It also can account for most of the change in the Horde/Alliance composition over the two areas examined.

Emphasizing again that this effectively controls for racials, additional races, and effectively controls for changes in class balance, I think the data presented here are very clear in the long term effects of presentation and marketing, and how they have eroded what people think of what used to be the second most popular race in the game.

Edit: I wanted to add a note because I did again ask for this post to be mirrored, because the mirror will land here, and because certain individuals unwilling to entertain inconvenient data are trying to kill said mirror.

Yes, this is a lore post. I primarily write about lore, and when I am referring to presentation and marketing, I am primarily referencing Blizzard's approaches over especially the last ten years towards presenting the Night Elves - which overwhelmingly has to do with the story and the lore. Given that we're dealing with the same game, I feel that this data adequately isolates that issue, and is worth discussing in a setting where the impact of story is considered.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Sadly Kya, it doesn't matter, Blizz put out numbers saying they have more active users in BFA now than when they started the expac, so lore has too small of an impact to override rule of cool and sunk cost.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:18 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Sadly Kya, it doesn't matter, Blizz put out numbers saying they have more active users in BFA now than when they started the expac, so lore has too small of an impact to override rule of cool and sunk cost.
Those numbers wouldn't line up with their financial statements. They lost 2 million MAUs in the fourth quarter of 2018, and didn't get them back either in the first or second quarter of 2019.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:08 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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We have absolutely no idea on the exact distribution of MAUs, so that is not a particularly strong argument.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:25 AM
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Also, there may be a range of other factors for why people are choosing certain races for their return to WoW Classic. There are likely some fondly remembering (with rose-colored glasses) the Barrens. There are some likely wanting to re-experience the original undead questing zones. I didn't particularly find the original night elf zones that interesting, and they were disadvantages to making a night elf, such as the cross-continental marathon run.
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Old 08-13-2019, 06:01 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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We have absolutely no idea on the exact distribution of MAUs, so that is not a particularly strong argument.
You don't need to know the exact distribution, you just need to know what is reportable. If in the fourth quarter, there were significant drops coming from other franchises in the MAU department, ATVI would have had to report them. They instead reported that those franchises saw sequential stability in the fourth quarter.

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Also, there may be a range of other factors for why people are choosing certain races for their return to WoW Classic. There are likely some fondly remembering (with rose-colored glasses) the Barrens. There are some likely wanting to re-experience the original undead questing zones. I didn't particularly find the original night elf zones that interesting, and they were disadvantages to making a night elf, such as the cross-continental marathon run.
As I mentioned there may be some confounding factors, and this data is preliminary. Still, I don't think those factors can account for the sheer disparity we're looking at here. Those disadvantages existed in Vanilla and were experienced by the playerbase then, and it's notable that when you turn the wayback machine to the next year, the numbers haven't changed much. Something is different here.
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Old 08-13-2019, 06:55 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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As an addendum.

There's a limitation in my study that an actual instance of vanilla may look different from what people SAY they will play. This isn't a perfect response, as it omits the results of BfA, but we do have some data that can address this.

First, I want to point out the 2006 data from the wayback machine, which shows us the effects of reality sitting in. If some criticisms I have received hold water, Night Elf numbers should decrease.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060328...quickstats.php

2006 to 2005 by Kyalin Raintree, on Flickr

They do not.

Secondly, we have numbers from Elysium, a private server, about race distribution. This data was collected in October 2017, so before BFA was announced, but this also takes into account many years of bad Night Elf lore, while accounting for what it would look like in a live game environment:

Elysium by Kyalin Raintree, on Flickr

There are differences from the survey results, but not where Night Elves are concerned.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:41 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Those numbers wouldn't line up with their financial statements. They lost 2 million MAUs in the fourth quarter of 2018, and didn't get them back either in the first or second quarter of 2019.
So Blizz would be lying again? Not inconceivable but I kind of doubt it, lying to players about planned decisions is one thing, lying in a statement of financial strength and player activity is another.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:50 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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So Blizz would be lying again? Not inconceivable but I kind of doubt it, lying to players about planned decisions is one thing, lying in a statement of financial strength and player activity is another.
I need to see the metric they are pointing to. The one I'm pointing to is the "Monthly Average User" metric, and it counts the number of people who play the game each month.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:57 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I need to see the metric they are pointing to. The one I'm pointing to is the "Monthly Average User" metric, and it counts the number of people who play the game each month.
https://www.battlechat.co/2019/08/ac...has-increased/
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:06 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Wowcensus is bad. If there's any wayback machine data on it, realmpop should be used.

Also, do we really know the specific number of active subscribers lost from BFA launch to that article's publication?

As in, if there was an increase in MAUs, isn't that going to be seen in the next quarterly report?
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