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  #26  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:01 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
You're aware that everyone in the Horde that isn't the Orcs are weak right?
What do the orcs actually supply that the other races can't, besides numbers? Realistically, that is without taking Blizzard's population shenanigans into consideration, should the orcish population really be that much larger than the population of the other races? Does anyone really expect Blizzard to not pull thousands of new orcs, rebel orcs out of the woodwork?
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  #27  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:04 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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What do the orcs actually supply that the other races can't, besides numbers? Realistically, that is without taking Blizzard's population shenanigans into consideration, should the orcish population really be that much larger than the population of the other races? Does anyone really expect Blizzard to not pull thousands of new orcs, rebel orcs out of the woodwork?
Orcs are more tech advanced due to how much they love war. Trolls and Tauren either refuse, can't use, or don't have much tech.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #28  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:04 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
What do the orcs actually supply that the other races can't, besides numbers? Realistically, that is without taking Blizzard's population shenanigans into consideration, should the orcish population really be that much larger than the population of the other races? Does anyone really expect Blizzard to not pull thousands of new orcs, rebel orcs out of the woodwork?
This has always been a bit of a bone for me, where do all these NPC come from. All of the Horde races were dying races, Blood elves, Tauren, trolls, orcs. All of those should have -very- minimal population. In the timeframe, only Orcs could produce 15-20 year old soldiers who would ahve minimal training. Alliance however have been doing alright for a while, but humans shouldn't be such a driving force, as they have been chucking bodies at every major thing to happen for the last 20 years.
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  #29  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:10 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Orcs are more tech advanced due to how much they love war. Trolls and Tauren either refuse, can't use, or don't have much tech.
The Goblins and eastern Horde races are still there, though. The orcs might have loved their machines, but they weren't the ones building and designing them. Not that they aren't capable of doing so, as evidenced by the Iron Horde.
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  #30  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:13 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Khadgar isn't neutral, and I'd hope that the (sane, not vengeance driven) Alliance General and the Horde Warlord would be able to talk and coordinate how they are going to deal with the Iron Horde.

And while I love the Alliance, treating the Horde/Orcs like dirt just because the Alliance won the war would just cause more negative feelings and conflict. Treating them as equals would further Varian's goal of peace, and I'd imagine the standing Order from Varian would be to treat them with respect. Otherwise, he should have just smashed the remnants after Garrosh was down.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #31  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:13 AM
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This has always been a bit of a bone for me, where do all these NPC come from. All of the Horde races were dying races, Blood elves, Tauren, trolls, orcs. All of those should have -very- minimal population. In the timeframe, only Orcs could produce 15-20 year old soldiers who would ahve minimal training. Alliance however have been doing alright for a while, but humans shouldn't be such a driving force, as they have been chucking bodies at every major thing to happen for the last 20 years.
The Dark Iron dwarves had their lands and major city overrun by the Horde (later Dark Horde) for 30 years. The Horde also pushed the dwarves back to Ironforge during the Second War. The dwarves likely have a low birth rate. The Wildhammer dwarves have been fighting Dragonmaw in their territory, and they have just lost entire villages and sub-clans to the Twilight's Hammer.

Gnomes nuked their own city and lost approximately ninety percent of their population.

Draenei were the victims of a mass genocide by the orcs, and up until Warcraft 3: TFT we were under the impression that they were totally exterminated.
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  #32  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:14 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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In this case though, the Azerothian populations of the factions don't matter at all. The horde has a few stranded champions, plus the severely weakened frostwolf and maybe the laughing skull. The alliance has a stranded expedition, plus the severely weakened unnamed draenei nation. They're taking on an imperium that controls most of the surface of their world. Population is not the luxury it usually is.
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  #33  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:25 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
The Dark Iron dwarves had their lands and major city overrun by the Horde (later Dark Horde) for 30 years. The Horde also pushed the dwarves back to Ironforge during the Second War. The dwarves likely have a low birth rate. The Wildhammer dwarves have been fighting Dragonmaw in their territory, and they have just lost entire villages and sub-clans to the Twilight's Hammer.

Gnomes nuked their own city and lost approximately ninety percent of their population.

Draenei were the victims of a mass genocide by the orcs, and up until Warcraft 3: TFT we were under the impression that they were totally exterminated.
I was lead to believe the Dwarves were doing quite well, *Itches head*

Gnomes, yeah, I feel terrible for gnomes. I remember killing a thousand in Uldum. I have never forgiven Blizz for that bit of storyline.

But yeah, you are right. I stand corrected!

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  #34  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:29 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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The Dark Iron dwarves had their lands and major city overrun by the Horde (later Dark Horde) for 30 years. The Horde also pushed the dwarves back to Ironforge during the Second War. The dwarves likely have a low birth rate. The Wildhammer dwarves have been fighting Dragonmaw in their territory, and they have just lost entire villages and sub-clans to the Twilight's Hammer.
"The Dark Iron Dwarves had their lands and major city overrun by the Horde (later Dark Horde) for 30 years." And yet when I look in BRD, there are thousands of them. But yes, the Dark Irons should have the lowest population of the dwarven clans.

"The Horde also pushed the dwarves back to Ironforge during the Second War." Heh. Yes? They did that with the humans and the elves as well. The humans and the elves suffered just as much as the dwarves did during the First and Second Wars, thus, the losses are equal and no large difference. Furthermore, it was said the "Entire dwarvish race" was waiting in Ironforge to boil out when given the chance. That doesn't sound like they suffered particularly devastating losses. Their -armies- obviously suffered casualties, but the civilians that can then join the army at a later date, and are nearly all trained in armed combat? (As evidenced by Mountaineers).

"The dwarves likely have a low birth rate." Fantasy stereotype. There is nothing to support that.

Dwarves are the most populated race in the Alliance, so logic should dictate. They've suffered losses but so has EVERY RACE ON AZEROTH. And the dwarves have suffered less.

I'm finding it highly, highly amusing that you are somehow trying to argue the Horde shouldn't be that bad population wise after just having come out of a devastating world war and civil war. Despite your deluded brain telling you otherwise - The majority of orcs joined Garrosh and the majority of those orcs subsequently died. We SAW. We have VISUAL EVIDENCE (You'll ignore it, I just know it) of the trolls and tauren ALSO taking heavy casualties in the rebellion. And we KNOW they are not as populated as the orcs because the Darkspears are ONE TRIBE and the tauren were always low population.

So no, don't even try to argue the Horde can hold a candle to the Alliance in terms of population, or go ahead, I don't mind. I'll just laugh.

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 04-07-2014 at 06:33 AM..
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  #35  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
"The Dark Iron Dwarves had their lands and major city overrun by the Horde (later Dark Horde) for 30 years." And yet when I look in BRD, there are thousands of them. But yes, the Dark Irons should have the lowest population of the dwarven clans.
And mostly aligned with Ragnaros or the Twilight's Hammer, correct?

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"The Horde also pushed the dwarves back to Ironforge during the Second War." Heh. Yes? They did that with the humans and the elves as well.
Evidence? Elves were not pushed back to Silvermoon during the Second War. Humans were not pushed back to their cities in the Second War. The closest was Lordaeron City, though the Kingdom of Lordaeron still held on to the majority of their territory during that time.

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The humans and the elves suffered just as much as the dwarves did during the First and Second Wars, thus, the losses are equal and no large difference.
No evidence.

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Furthermore, it was said the "Entire dwarvish race" was waiting in Ironforge to boil out when given the chance. That doesn't sound like they suffered particularly devastating losses. Their -armies- obviously suffered casualties, but the civilians that can then join the army at a later date, and are nearly all trained in armed combat? (As evidenced by Mountaineers).
The mountaineers are the entirety of their civilian population?

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"The dwarves likely have a low birth rate." Fantasy stereotype. There is nothing to support that.
Perhaps not, but Magni Bronzebeard is how old and he had how many children during that time? What's the ratio of lifespan to average number of children?

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Dwarves are the most populated race in the Alliance, so logic should dictate. They've suffered losses but so has EVERY RACE ON AZEROTH. And the dwarves have suffered less.
You have nothing to support that either.
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  #36  
Old 04-07-2014, 07:39 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Your sense of what's nice and respectful seems awfully subservient to the Alliance. You do realize that people play Horde, right? You do want people to actually enjoy the other half of the game that's outside of the Alliance faction player experience, right?
Something about this seems one-sided... maybe its what a previous poster had said about the Alliance always having had to act subservient and submissive to the Horde whenever the two sides cooperated and fought alongside one another in the past? I'm going to run with that, and modify the quoted text to try and emphasize the issue here.



"Your sense of what's nice and respectful seems awfully subservient to the Horde. You do realize that people play Alliance, right? You do want people to actually enjoy the other half of the game that's outside of the Horde faction player experience, right?"
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  #37  
Old 04-07-2014, 07:55 AM
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Something about this seems one-sided... maybe its what a previous poster had said about the Alliance always having had to act subservient and submissive to the Horde whenever the two sides cooperated and fought alongside one another in the past? I'm going to run with that, and modify the quoted text to try and emphasize the issue here.



"Your sense of what's nice and respectful seems awfully subservient to the Horde. You do realize that people play Alliance, right? You do want people to actually enjoy the other half of the game that's outside of the Horde faction player experience, right?"
Someone Suggests the Horde Crawl and beg: Totally reasonable

Someone points out that might not be the best idea: "Crazy"

I'm not sure I'm following you here Vex.
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  #38  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:05 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Blizzard's response to the Alliance's Cataclysm story:

"War isn't fair"

Kosak's response to the lack of Horde concessions at Orgrimmar:

"We didn't want to alienate the Horde playerbase"

Let the Horde spend some time in the mud. Not that it's ever going to happen.
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  #39  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Something about this seems one-sided... maybe its what a previous poster had said about the Alliance always having had to act subservient and submissive to the Horde whenever the two sides cooperated and fought alongside one another in the past? I'm going to run with that, and modify the quoted text to try and emphasize the issue here.
What had been suggested was that the Horde get on its knees and beg the Alliance. While it's easy to see how that'd make the Horde subservient to the Alliance, I'm not sure how not having the Horde do so somehow makes the Alliance subservient to the Horde.

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Let the Horde spend some time in the mud. Not that it's ever going to happen.
The Horde has spent plenty of time in the fucking mud already. Maybe we could stop pushing people in the mud for a bit.
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  #40  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:28 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Enemy of my enemy, etc. I don't see the problem with heroes from either faction banding together to beat greater evil #167. I mean, it would be pretty stupid of them to yell out "MUH ENEMY" and then start butchering each other while the universe ending foe#345 slowly draws closer and closer.

It would make them a wee bit silly, it would put them on the same level as the Scarlet Crusade to a certain degree.
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  #41  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:34 AM
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What had been suggested was that the Horde get on its knees and beg the Alliance. While it's easy to see how that'd make the Horde subservient to the Alliance, I'm not sure how not having the Horde do so somehow makes the Alliance subservient to the Horde.
You're misinterpreting it. In the past joint Conflicts, the Horde often took the lead, took command, and the Alliance had to go crawling through the mud and ask to cooperate. Now that someone is suggesting the opposite happen, the response players are coming up with are, "Well, that wouldn't be enjoyable for the Horde fans, now would it?" It's asserting an assumption that the Alliance fans enjoy watching their faction debase themselves to the Horde.

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The Horde has spent plenty of time in the fucking mud already. Maybe we could stop pushing people in the mud for a bit.
So rather than the Horde picking itself up out of the mud, why can't it ask the Alliance for a hand and the Alliance pick them up out of the mud? Seems like a good way for future positive relations to form, don't you think?
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:41 AM
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You're misinterpreting it. In the past joint Conflicts, the Horde often took the lead, took command, and the Alliance had to go crawling through the mud and ask to cooperate.
When has that ever happened?

The closest thing I can think of was when the Alliance took the initiative to exploit the Darkspear Rebellion for their own ends, and they got to blackmail Vol'jin.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
So rather than the Horde picking itself up out of the mud, why can't it ask the Alliance for a hand and the Alliance pick them up out of the mud? Seems like a good way for future positive relations to form, don't you think?
Course, what's being suggested is that the Horde should have beg for the Alliance to pull their foot off their throat so they can get out of the mud.
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:44 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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When has that ever happened?

The closest thing I can think of was when the Alliance took the initiative to exploit the Darkspear Rebellion for their own ends, and they got to blackmail Vol'jin.
One example coming to mind is the Ahn'Qiraj war, where the Horde led the offensive and so forth. However, its something another poster stated, so perhaps they can come up with additional sources.

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Course, what's being suggested is that the Horde should have beg for the Alliance to pull their foot off their throat so they can get out of the mud.
*Shrugs* Regardless, the Horde has to get out of the mud somehow, and having the Alliance helping them do so shouldn't diminish the Horde story or player experience.
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  #44  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
You're misinterpreting it. In the past joint Conflicts, the Horde often took the lead, took command, and the Alliance had to go crawling through the mud and ask to cooperate. Now that someone is suggesting the opposite happen, the response players are coming up with are, "Well, that wouldn't be enjoyable for the Horde fans, now would it?"

It's asserting an assumption that the Alliance fans enjoy watching their faction debase themselves to the Horde.



So rather than the Horde picking itself up out of the mud, why can't it ask the Alliance for a hand and the Alliance pick them up out of the mud? Seems like a good way for future positive relations to form, don't you think?
1.When the fresh flying fuck has the alliance had to crawl through the mud?

2. How the hell does the Horde -not- debasing themselves equate to the Alliance debasing themselves? Is the alliance really so damn fragile now that if the Horde isn't their bitch they're going to consider it favoritism?

3. Because the Horde shouldn't be dependent on the Alliance to clean up its messes.
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  #45  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:47 AM
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Hopefully the Pandaren establish an international system that can integrate both the Horde and Alliance as independent states into such a system. This would facilitate cooperation in times when it is necessary, but not be intrusive otherwise. Let's think of it like a prototype league of nations, meant to defend against possible international threats, but not interfering in either domestic or inter-state affairs.
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  #46  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:47 AM
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As an Alliance player I don't want to work with a single Horde fucker this expansion. Not. A. Single. One. The Alliance doesn't need them. They only ever brought a ton of shit to the Alliance.

The Horde also shouldn't steal Alliance characters spotlight. They can get their own old wise mage.
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  #47  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
One example coming to mind is the Ahn'Qiraj war, where the Horde led the offensive and so forth. However, its something another poster stated, so perhaps they can come up with additional sources.



*Shrugs* Regardless, the Horde has to get out of the mud somehow, and having the Alliance helping them do so shouldn't diminish the Horde story or player experience.
1. How the hell is that 'crawling through the mud' just cause Saurfang gave the speach? There were Alliance people in the Might of Kalimdor's command structure too.

2. You're missing the bigger picture here, we're already fighting again in Ashran, I don't -want- the Horde to continually have to fight people that lorewise it respects or likes for whatever reason due to game mechanics.

We don't need Khadgar in our questing, if it's just diplomatic coordination great but he's an Alliance hero and I don't want him
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  #48  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:48 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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I would love for the Alliance/Horde faction war to end all together, I am bored of that aspect now.

How to do it? No idea, and I don't think it will ever do as its the core of the game.

I can see War being kicked up again, and we will go back to square one.
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  #49  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
One example coming to mind is the Ahn'Qiraj war, where the Horde led the offensive and so forth. However, its something another poster stated, so perhaps they can come up with additional sources.

*Shrugs* Regardless, the Horde has to get out of the mud somehow, and having the Alliance helping them do so shouldn't diminish the Horde story or player experience.
Wait a second. Having a faction character lead the neutral or joint organization is a sign of one faction being subservient to the other? Brother, you're bitching about the wrong faction being made subservient, because that means the Horde's been working for the Alliance for over 10 years, rather than the other way around.

I'm just not seeing how having the Horde constantly beg for the Alliance's mercy and help in everything it does for a few expansions is at all conducive to an enjoyable experience.
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  #50  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:54 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Blizzard's response to the Alliance's Cataclysm story:

"War isn't fair"

Kosak's response to the lack of Horde concessions at Orgrimmar:

"We didn't want to alienate the Horde playerbase"

Let the Horde spend some time in the mud. Not that it's ever going to happen.
Well, how much mud they have to walk through can be argued (The players shouldn't, but the faction and its NPCs still can), but I certainly agree with this.

Last edited by Dawnfeld; 04-07-2014 at 08:57 AM..
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