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  #26  
Old 01-21-2015, 12:25 AM
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Well, while we bide our time until Handclaw graces this thread once again with his model-tastic presence, I figured I should continue the conversation on a different thread.
Note: better check your private messages.
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  #27  
Old 01-21-2015, 08:25 AM
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Note: better check your private messages.
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Ay-YAH! "January 16th!? I gotta check that more frequently!

Duly noted. Typing furiously as we speak. xD
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:11 AM
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Ay-YAH! "January 16th!? I gotta check that more frequently!

Duly noted. Typing furiously as we speak. xD
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  #29  
Old 02-10-2015, 07:59 AM
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  #30  
Old 02-10-2015, 10:14 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Just chiming in to say I quite like this idea, TriumVirate.

I've got a ton of trollish lore ideas, though they mostly pertain to society and culture. I'm not sure how much direct impact they'd have on an RTS campaign, but let me know if you're interested in hearing them.
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  #31  
Old 02-10-2015, 10:24 AM
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Just chiming in to say I quite like this idea, TriumVirate.
<3

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I've got a ton of trollish lore ideas, though they mostly pertain to society and culture. I'm not sure how much direct impact they'd have on an RTS campaign, but let me know if you're interested in hearing them.
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...What is important, and is something I need your help on, is Building some underlying Lore concepts that I can use & 'Deconstructing' them to something realistic.

...

This is in part due to my desire to create a cohesive story, set post-TFT, that deals with the Trolls and their ascension to an Empire. However, I've never seen a campaign take it "from the Trolls' viewpoint" before, so I'm trying hard not to make this a campaign of weed-smoking hippies throwing spears & doing voodoo. I believe the Trolls have a vibrant & manifold culture with spiritual, tribal, combat-ical, hierarchical, cultural, and other-al facets, and I wanna represent that as best (plausibly & interestingly) as I can.

...

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, you considerate & intelligent people, you. : P
Like I said, I've pretty much got the "RTS faction design" down pat (FINALLY (hopefully...)), though I'm open to some considerations on that as well. No, I'm looking specifically for societal, cultural, and mythological elements; LORE-MEAT as BaronGrackle likes to call it.

So please: Fire away. : )
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  #32  
Old 02-10-2015, 01:35 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Like I said, I've pretty much got the "RTS faction design" down pat (FINALLY (hopefully...)), though I'm open to some considerations on that as well. No, I'm looking specifically for societal, cultural, and mythological elements; LORE-MEAT as BaronGrackle likes to call it.

So please: Fire away. : )
Happy to help! Keep in mind that this is mostly headcanon/speculation.

Tribal Organization: The Darkspear Tribe consists of several different bands. A band consists of a few extended and interrelated families. Traditionally, they'd have been spread across a handful of villages. Bands can come and go, some lines fading out due to attrition or misfortune, only to be replaced by others.

This allows the tribe to be fairly extensive in its reach, while also being socially intimate. Unlike other major players in WoW, the average Darkspear is at least acquainted with most others within the tribe.

Here are the nine bands I developed (sorry if it's TMI):

Sen’jin Village: Bone-carvers and Silent Steps.

Orgrimmar: Pierced Lips and Tiger Stripes—a lot of others used to live here, including many of the Bone-carvers, but most drifted back to their own kin after the Cataclysm.

Shadowprey Village: Red Legs and Fish-eaters.

Echo Isles: Stone Tusks—they used to live in Sen’jin but moved back once they threw Zalazane out of the islands; the Echo Isles is a place for all Darkspear, especially when it comes to teaching warriors, but it is the home of the Stone Tusks.

Stranglethorn Vale: Yellow Fingers—they went back to the Vale early, going back and forth between Grom’gol and Booty Bay. Bambala is largely their work.

Ashenvale: Cold Eyes—dwelled in the Warsong lumber camps, though a lot of them now fight in the Southern Barrens.

There are also a few "unofficial" bands. These don't meet the technical criteria of bands, since they aren't based on blood relations. They've instead been forged in some of the new social bonds that have arisen since the Darkspear Tribe joined the Horde. These are:

The Darkbriar Lodge - The mages in Orgrimmar's Valley of Spirits. While individual mages still have connections to their native bands, they usually spend more time with other spell casters. Warlocks are also a part of this tenuous grouping.

The druids - Located in the Echo Isles, the new trollish druids keep their own counsel. Again, all members are still parts of other bands.

The Holy Voices - Followers of Jin'zil, the witch doctor in Stonetalon.

The Raptor Fangs - Mostly former Bloodscalp and Skullsplitter warriors, under the leadership of Denjai. They maintained an outpost in Zangarmarsh for a number of years.

The patriarch of a band is called the master. The master's authority over the band is quite strong, but by no means absolute: it's mediated by lesser patriarchs, gossip, and witch doctors. The master is typically but not always the eldest.

The leader of a given community is known as the headman. A headman is usually a master, but this is not always the case. The headman acts as a spokesman and mediator. However, many decisions are made through a village council.

These are conducted as follows. A priest will take out a soughan (troll skull of ritual importance) and pass it around to those who wish to speak (usually senior tribal members, though younger ones can negotiate a spot). Whoever holds the soughan has the floor's undivided attention, but can only speak for a limited time.

Once the soughan finishes its cycle, the matters being discussed are opened up to everyone attending. The attendees will cheer or jeer to let senior members know what the village thinks.

Disputes within a community are handled by insult contests. The two parties will gather at the village center and exchange barbs. It's considered a great form of entertainment. This allows personal disputes to be handled in a non-violent fashion. It also means that the Darkspear in general learn to be witty and to have thick skins (psychologically speaking). Their culture is better suited to diplomacy than is, say, orcish culture.

The chieftain is a recent invention. Formerly, no one troll could really claim to speak for the entire tribe. Sometimes, a particularly esteemed headman would act as a de facto leader, but this was never made official.

The position of chieftain was codified under Thrall. He must have approval from seven different bands, and be approved separately by the priesthood. The chieftain acted as the Darkspear spokesman within the Horde.

Religion: For most of history, the Zandalari acted as the ultimate religious authorities. They saw themselves as the intermediaries between common trolls and the loa. Now that the Darkspear have beaten the Zandalari, they are sometimes seen as the successors.

Priests occupy an esteemed role within the community. They have access to the soughan skulls. These are skulls through which living trolls can communicate with the ghosts of ancestors. The trolls see this as distinct from necromancy—a necromancer forces the spirit of the dead to do his bidding. Through the soughan, the priest requests audience with the spirit, meaning that the ancestor still has agency.

Many priests spent time on Zandalar, and thus know more about ancient trollish culture. They also lead the village in proper rituals, many of which involve self-mortification (due to their regenerative abilities, trolls can take this to extremes).

Trolls will consult with soughan for help in solving disputes, for advice in marriage, and all manner of other issues.

Shamans deal with nature spirits. Spirits are to be respected, but not worshipped. As such, shamans take a rather practical approach to the situation, not unlike a plumber or an electrician.

Witch doctors primarily focus on healing the sick with herbs and totems. Priests required a certain level of training, which made their numbers scarce in the old days. Now that the Darkspear are much wealthier, priests have become more common, and have replaced the witch doctors to some extent. However, the dividing line between witch doctor and priest is somewhat blurry; plenty of trolls have been both.

Shadow hunters are essentially a type of shaman that deals with darker and more aggressive spiritual forces. Many shadow hunters have become warlocks.

The Darkspear believe in the same grim afterlife as other jungle tribes. The dead roam the world as ghosts that only receive succor from the sacrifices (both blood and material sacrifice) given by their descendants. This pressures trolls to have many children. The afterlife of a childless troll is even less pleasant than the norm, as they will not benefit from sacrifices done in their name.

Magic: The Darkspear Tribe doesn't entirely trust magic. Some of this stems from the ancestral memory of the elven mages who destroyed the Gurubashi Empire. It's also because magic represents a source of power that comes from outside the loa.

Darkspear mages were not always seen as a full part of the tribe. A child with magical ability would be sent away to live with a more experienced wizard, far from village life. The child would even be given a sort of funeral to represent their "social" death.

Mages are now better integrated into society, but they are still seen as outsiders to some degree. The troll mages in Orgrimmar are trying to give themselves a leadership role among Horde magic-users in Kalimdor.

Warfare: Reflecting their origins, the Darkspear prefer to make quick strikes. It must be remembered that, before the Horde, the Darkspear lived in a state of near-constant warfare with other tribes.

In tribal warfare, every single member of a tribe is a potential combatant, and will be treated as such. Raids are designed to kill or incapacitate as many trolls as possible, including children.

Every adult Darkspear has lost a sibling or cousin to the violence of another tribe. Likewise, every village has a hero or two who earned his name by performing unspeakably cruel things to the tribe's enemies. This is reflected in the tribe's pragmatic and results-focused view of warfare, though they are somewhat less aggressive than before.

The Darkspear Tribe is seen as having been more peaceful than the Bloodscalps or Skullsplitters. In reality, this may have just been because they were more isolated and thus less involved in internecine warfare. The Darkspears have accepted some of Thrall's reforms, but Garrosh's reign weakened their trust in all things orcish.

Despite this, the Darkspear Tribe has accepted defeated members of other tribes. This was done in order to boost its population within the Horde, and to demonstrate how well the tribe had accepted Thrall's values. Members of other tribes are treated as second-class citizens; men from the Bloodscalp and Skullsplitter tribes, for instance, find it almost impossible to get Darkspear wives (some of them end up looking for mates among the Revantusk, which causes friction in the Hinterlands).

Modernism: Within a single generation, the Darkspears went from a marginalized jungle tribe to the head of an Azerothian great power. It's been quite a ride.

A troll can look at the great cities of elves and humans, and legitimately say: "We did that first." Trolls invented anthropoid civilization, and the more worldly Darkspears see no reason why they cannot reclaim this legacy. The fact that a troll rules the Horde gives them the means to do so.

However, there's a lot of internal friction. More traditional trolls see the modernizers as out-of-touch (which is a valid criticism). Village life helped the trolls survive long after the cities fell apart. The Gurubashi collapsed, so how good could they have really been?

Relatively little is known about the great troll empires, so the modernizers must rely on guesswork when it comes to creating a nationalist narrative. They often borrow elements from humans, elves, and orcs, which the traditionalists see as a sign of inauthenticity. The modernizers, for their part, believe themselves to be adding to and improving the past.

Modernizers tend to live in Orgrimmar, and count the local priests and mages as supporters. Others can be found throughout Stranglethorn Vale, where they agitate for pan-trollish nationalism. The more traditionally minded can be found in Sen'jin and Shadowprey. Echo Isles has elements of both factions.

Hope that's not too much info.
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2015, 09:18 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Hope that's not too much info.
Nonsense! The more the merrier. I especially am grateful to see I'm not the only one giving the Trolls some SRS thought.

Before I go on, I should point out that I am really focusing mostly on Trolls from a specific locale/time-period; that is, "Stranglethorn Vale" & "Wc3-postTFT-preWoW". The earliest this could start is, well, anytime during Wc3 (but probably either A: after the Darkspear tribe leaves (SV or the Echo Isles), or B: after TFT starts, when the Naga arise). But even that is arguable; I could see some of these things happening during RoC or what-not.

Anyway, that means that while I'm interested in your thoughts about post-WoW & Darkspear trolls, and their integration into the great big world of Azeroth, that's not quite the direction I'm going. I'll basically be making my own Tribe & nestling it right into the midst of some nasty inter-tribal warfare, all set entirely in Stranglethorn Vale.

Still, there's a lot of nuggets in your pile. Lemme dig in. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Tribal Organization: The Darkspear Tribe consists of several different bands. A band consists of a few extended and interrelated families. ...
There are also a few "unofficial" bands. These don't meet the technical criteria of bands, since they aren't based on blood relations.
Noice. This is actually something I was already considering; sorta taking a nod from Robert Jordan's Aiel in the Wheel of Time series, I wanted to have these "Tribes" made up mostly of family-relations, and then "Clans" made up mostly of job/caste-relations, and the two would be sorta intermingled in a complex web of loyalties (so you might belong to the Bloodscalp tribe and fight against Skullsplinter tribals, yet have some BS & SS tribe-members part of the same Clan (e.g. followers of the Bat-Loa, Hireek, or Warriors of the Spear)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
The patriarch of a band is called the master. ...
The leader of a given community is known as the headman. ...
These are conducted as follows. ...
Iiiiiiinteresting... So you eschew the whole "tribal witch doctor leader" thing entirely, going instead for "patriarch/other leader" sorta dealie.

I kinda like my "spiritual/physical leader duumvirate" bit better, but I could see incorporating something like this. : )

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Originally Posted by HS
Disputes within a community are handled by insult contests. The two parties will gather at the village center and exchange barbs. It's considered a great form of entertainment. This allows personal disputes to be handled in a non-violent fashion. It also means that the Darkspear in general learn to be witty and to have thick skins (psychologically speaking). Their culture is better suited to diplomacy than is, say, orcish culture.
Oooooh, now that's what I'm talking about! I hadn't considered this, and it almost seems silly... But on second blush, it's quite apropos. To me, this is a prime outgrowth (yay! deconstruction) of their racial Regeneration feat.

Think of it this way; what use are feats of strength & barbarism & pointless duels to show who's better; neither incumbent nor challenger will likely be injured in any grievous or lasting way. They will just regenerate & be back for more (or worse, stage a coup). No, the only thing that matters is, well, your honor. Mental/emotional pain. So INSULT CONTEST!
Also stress outlet.
Also Curse of Monkey Island-throwback.

Love it. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Religion: For most of history, the Zandalari acted as the ultimate religious authorities. ...
Interesting. I honestly don't know what to do about the Zandalari & the implications thereof. I might just ignore it completely/retcon it from my stuff. Hrm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Priests occupy an esteemed role within the community. They have access to the soughan skulls. These are skulls through which living trolls can communicate with the ghosts of ancestors. The trolls see this as distinct from necromancy—a necromancer forces the spirit of the dead to do his bidding. Through the soughan, the priest requests audience with the spirit, meaning that the ancestor still has agency.

...They also lead the village in proper rituals, many of which involve self-mortification (due to their regenerative abilities, trolls can take this to extremes).

Shamans deal with nature spirits. Spirits are to be respected, but not worshipped. As such, shamans take a rather practical approach to the situation, not unlike a plumber or an electrician.

Witch doctors primarily focus on healing the sick with herbs and totems. ...

Shadow hunters are essentially a type of shaman that deals with darker and more aggressive spiritual forces. Many shadow hunters have become warlocks.
Interesting distinctions. I don't have the problem of having to explain ridiculous non-Troll classes (e.g. Mage, Warlock, "Holy Priest", etc), but I like your thoughts about "non-necromancy", "self-mortification" (again, Regeneration tie-in), & "practical shamanism".

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
The Darkspear believe in the same grim afterlife as other jungle tribes. The dead roam the world as ghosts that only receive succor from the sacrifices (both blood and material sacrifice) given by their descendants. This pressures trolls to have many children. The afterlife of a childless troll is even less pleasant than the norm, as they will not benefit from sacrifices done in their name.
Really? Interesting. i curiously had never considered the Troll after-life. How much of this is headcanon & how much is derived from "canon" (WoW/etc)?
Nice deconstruction, either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Magic: The Darkspear Tribe doesn't entirely trust magic. Some of this stems from the ancestral memory of the elven mages who destroyed the Gurubashi Empire. It's also because magic represents a source of power that comes from outside the loa.
As well they shouldn't. : ) Trolls basically go with the Light-side of the Force (manipulating forces of nature & spirits through persuasion & working "with" them), while everyone else (read: Arcane casters) are basically the Dark-side of the Force (forcing/wresting the elements to their bidding).
Yeah, what you said. xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Warfare: Reflecting their origins, the Darkspear prefer to make quick strikes. It must be remembered that, before the Horde, the Darkspear lived in a state of near-constant warfare with other tribes.

In tribal warfare, every single member of a tribe is a potential combatant, and will be treated as such. Raids are designed to kill or incapacitate as many trolls as possible, including children.

Every adult Darkspear has lost a sibling or cousin to the violence of another tribe. Likewise, every village has a hero or two who earned his name by performing unspeakably cruel things to the tribe's enemies. This is reflected in the tribe's pragmatic and results-focused view of warfare, though they are somewhat less aggressive than before.

The Darkspear Tribe is seen as having been more peaceful than the Bloodscalps or Skullsplitters. In reality, this may have just been because they were more isolated and thus less involved in internecine warfare.
Interesting. Scary implications, killing kids & all that. I wonder if that would tie-in to the 'having lots of kids' bit, too.

Not sure I like it, but it makes sense. :<

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Despite this, the Darkspear Tribe has accepted defeated members of other tribes....Members of other tribes are treated as second-class citizens; ...
Ah, yes, the inevitable "slavery" bit. I was really torn; I've been going with calling the "peons" of the Jungle Trolls "Groundlings" (from OH), and I've liked that name for a while... But I was searching for something else, and realized that one of the only other good, unused options was "Slave", referencing the no-doubt-numerous Slaves each tribe/clan would take from their defeated enemies (the ones they didn't eat/sacrifice, that is : P). BUT the friggin' Naga already have that, with their "Mur'gul Slave". *sigh*

But yeah, I like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
A troll can look at the great cities of elves and humans, and legitimately say: "We did that first." Trolls invented anthropoid civilization, and the more worldly Darkspears see no reason why they cannot reclaim this legacy....

However, there's a lot of internal friction. More traditional trolls see the modernizers as out-of-touch (which is a valid criticism). Village life helped the trolls survive long after the cities fell apart. The Gurubashi collapsed, so how good could they have really been?

Relatively little is known about the great troll empires, so the modernizers must rely on guesswork when it comes to creating a nationalist narrative. ...
Excellent. And exactly why I'm doing all this. "Trolls did it first"... And they will do it again. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS
Relatively little is known about the great troll empires...
No kidding! x/
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My primary Project Thread:
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  #34  
Old 02-13-2015, 07:03 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Glad to help!

I also have some ideas about how the jungle trolls see the other trollish culture groups. I imagine that the jungle trolls largely look down on their forest cousins. Some of this stems back to ancient days: the Gurubashi Empire reached higher levels of cultural development than did the Amani.

An example of this can be seen in the fact that true arches can be found in Gurubashi ruins, while the Amani relied on the less durable (though still impressive) corbel arch. The Gurubashi also had a more unitary government, while the Amani were often splintered by ambitious warlords who controlled a single city-state.

Modern forest trolls tend to be more violent than the jungle tribes. Intra-tribal disputes are violent and sometimes lethal. Though this weakens the tribe as a whole, it does strengthen the victorious individual's standing. As such, forest tribes are usually weaker units than are jungle tribes.

That said, the jungle trolls still respect Zul'jin, if only for his sheer cussedness in uniting the forest tribes.

Ice trolls are seen as strange and violent savages even worse than the forest tribes (this stems from my own attempt to combine the barbaric portrayal of the ice trolls in the RPGs books, and the highly developed civilization seen in WoW).

Desert trolls are also held in low regard, largely due to their bizarre religious practices.
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  #35  
Old 02-20-2015, 01:54 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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An example of this can be seen in the fact that true arches can be found in Gurubashi ruins, while the Amani relied on the less durable (though still impressive) corbel arch. The Gurubashi also had a more unitary government, while the Amani were often splintered by ambitious warlords who controlled a single city-state.
You know, this is the kind of detail it takes playing the game to notice... Fascinating. I think that really speaks to the architectural & overall empirical BETTERness of Jungle Trolls.

That last bit is interesting... I err towards the former, out of preference, but I'd almost say the latter is true of both nowadays. I'd also say that the former speaks to my preferred "Mesoamerican" setting, while the latter seems more "African" and thus more truly "Trollish" (since, unfortunately, I've determined that my a lot of modern-day Trolls really share a lot with African culture/mythology/etc).

I'm curious where you fall on that spectrum, in terms of belief/preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
Modern forest trolls tend to be more violent than the jungle tribes. Intra-tribal disputes are violent and sometimes lethal. Though this weakens the tribe as a whole, it does strengthen the victorious individual's standing. As such, forest tribes are usually weaker units than are jungle tribes.

That said, the jungle trolls still respect Zul'jin, if only for his sheer cussedness in uniting the forest tribes.

Ice trolls are seen as strange and violent savages even worse than the forest tribes (this stems from my own attempt to combine the barbaric portrayal of the ice trolls in the RPGs books, and the highly developed civilization seen in WoW).

Desert trolls are also held in low regard, largely due to their bizarre religious practices.
Interesting, interesting. I particularly like the idea of "less violent" Jungle Trolls... Well I guess I don't quite "like" it, so much as feel it understandably explains their standing strength.

Man I should play WoW.

~~~

So do you have any thoughts in direct response to some of my original queries?
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  #36  
Old 02-20-2015, 07:04 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
You know, this is the kind of detail it takes playing the game to notice... Fascinating. I think that really speaks to the architectural & overall empirical BETTERness of Jungle Trolls.

That last bit is interesting... I err towards the former, out of preference, but I'd almost say the latter is true of both nowadays. I'd also say that the former speaks to my preferred "Mesoamerican" setting, while the latter seems more "African" and thus more truly "Trollish" (since, unfortunately, I've determined that my a lot of modern-day Trolls really share a lot with African culture/mythology/etc).

I'm curious where you fall on that spectrum, in terms of belief/preference.
The ancient trolls fell more into the Mesoamerican style, while the modern trolls are more… tribal. I don't like using "African" as a descriptor, because it's too broad (and, in this context, carries loads and loads of unfortunate implications). The Mali Empire, the Zulus, the Igbo, the Kongo, the Shona who built Great Zimbabwe, and the Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopia are all vastly different from one another.

Granted, using Mesoamerican falls into a similar trap, but there's a bit more cultural commonality there.

In my mind, both trollish cultures have become more violent and decentralized. It's just that the Amani tended toward that even before the fall of their empire.

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Interesting, interesting. I particularly like the idea of "less violent" Jungle Trolls... Well I guess I don't quite "like" it, so much as feel it understandably explains their standing strength.

Man I should play WoW.

~~~

So do you have any thoughts in direct response to some of my original queries?
I always saw regeneration as a basically natural (albeit improbable—but this is Warcraft) phenomenon. Though you can recover from any wound, you still have to survive the damage inflicted. Thus, after being seriously wounded, a troll might very well bleed to death before the regeneration can help. It's more of a long-term healing strategy than a short-term one.

I touched on leadership in my earlier post. The headman acts as leader in a particular community. However, he still has to work through/with masters, senior hunters, and religious figures. The priests might have ties to Zandalar, which gives them influence. At the same time, the Zandalari are reluctant to expend the effort of getting involved in local affairs, so that influence only goes so far.

You also have wives and mothers, who are outside the official power structure, but still have influence on it (as well as their own hierarchy, largely based on the number of healthy children that a woman bears—trollish society is misogynistic).

Trollish religion is something I'd see as a natural calling. Some children might be more sensitive to the world of ancestor spirits and Loa, and thus become inducted into the mystic ranks. Those who do well may go to Zandalar for training (though I didn't imagine this as being true for all priests—not all can afford to make the trip, as they are needed in their homeland).

Alchemy overlaps with the spiritual realm, as the trolls see the world as a fundamentally spiritual place. The concept of secularism would not exist. However, the alchemist is more focused on the practical aspects (since they deal in herbs, etc.). They might have minor chants or rituals that they use when preparing potions, or ask priests to bless what they do.

Spiritualism might be divided into:

1) That which comes from the Loa. These would be the big guns—direct damage, major effects, generational curses. However, the troll must give a great deal in return. This might be reserved for some kind of priestly hero unit.

2) That which comes from the ancestors. This is lesser in scope. Examples might be divination from the previously mentioned soughan skulls, or minor buffs/debuffs. Priests handle this. Proper recompense takes the form of traditional self-mortification, continuation of tribal traditions, and maybe personal acknowledgement.

3) That which comes from the spirits. Here's where shamans come in. The spirits are acknowledged, but not seen as entities deserving worship. The shaman in essence persuades the spirits to do his bidding. Thus, he has to give something in return (though in some cases the shaman could try to trick the spirit—a dangerous game, but one that's potentially lucrative).

4) That which comes from beyond. This is a grab-bag of anything that doesn't fall into the above categories. Arcane magic is the most notable example. Shadow hunters might also delve into this by tapping into the demonic realm (usually without full realization of what it is they're doing).
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:48 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
The ancient trolls fell more into the Mesoamerican style, while the modern trolls are more… tribal. I don't like using "African" as a descriptor, because it's too broad (and, in this context, carries loads and loads of unfortunate implications). The Mali Empire, the Zulus, the Igbo, the Kongo, the Shona who built Great Zimbabwe, and the Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopia are all vastly different from one another.

Granted, using Mesoamerican falls into a similar trap, but there's a bit more cultural commonality there.
I see where you're coming from, but you've literally done to Mesoamerican's what I've done to Africans. I mean, I know Mayincatec is a thing, after all, but...

Anyway, I'll be honest, while I recognize that all those different ones you mentioned are valid, I see just as much "cultural commonality" between them as you do for Mesoamericans. More importantly, though (since I'm a pseudo-proponent of "talking up to the audience"), this is Blizzard we're talking about; 'broad cultural pastiches' are the name of the game. : ) Dwarves are ultra-Scots, Humans are ultra-Brits, Elves are ultra-Hippies (lol), Trolls are ultra-Jamaicans/Africans/Mesoamericans, Tauren are ultra-Native-Americans, etc.

So when I say "African", it's more to point out that a fractured, primarily tribal society living in the wilderness, with a religio-spiritual magic system involving spirits (of ancestors & of nature), misogyny, tribal warrior chieftain heads w/ spiritual leaders... Just strikes me as very "generic African tribal" kinda. We'll go with "Saharan" or "Savannah-an" African, I guess.

(again, I'm not a particularly big fan of this; I'm just saying what I've seen/derived. I prefer my Trolls Mesoamerican, personally)


Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
I always saw regeneration as a basically natural (albeit improbable—but this is Warcraft) phenomenon. Though you can recover from any wound, you still have to survive the damage inflicted. Thus, after being seriously wounded, a troll might very well bleed to death before the regeneration can help. It's more of a long-term healing strategy than a short-term one.
Hm, yes. That makes a lot of sense. So you'd say, not quite as powerful as Wolverine (or I should say, "not as fast")?

Also, where do you think it derives? You say "natural", but is that, like, "Trollish biology" (blood/flesh?) Is it genetics, or related at all to spirituality? As an example, what could stop Troll regeneration? What could start it again, or make it stronger/more effective?

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
I touched on leadership in my earlier post.
True, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
...trollish society is misogynistic).
Ah, now this is something that needs discussing.

Where is this stated/determined? Because I have heard the same thing, and it fits the (cultural) profile, somewhat... But if that's so, how does the game explain players who choose a female Troll & get (I presume, having not played WoW substantively) the same treatment/respect as male Trolls, even from other male Trolls? Is it seriously just "oh they're Darkspear, so they are all liberal & open-minded & such"?

Because that's dumb.

I fear straying too far from the source material, but I've kinda got a few female Troll units/heroes in the race, and a female deuteragonist in the campaign that can't really be treated like property/baby-makers if things are going to go smoothly.

So I might be making an Alternate-Universe-interpretation of Jungle Trolls with this whole thing (which is not entirely pleasing)... Or if I can swing a "hey, one of those Jungle Troll tribes you haven't heard of that isn't totally misogynistic! But are still cannibals." xD

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
Trollish religion is something I'd see as a natural calling. ...
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
Alchemy overlaps with the spiritual realm, as the trolls see the world as a fundamentally spiritual place. The concept of secularism would not exist. However, the alchemist is more focused on the practical aspects (since they deal in herbs, etc.). ...
Nooooooeeeesss!!!1!

I knew I should've did some more research...

What you've said totally makes sense, and I would totally agree... Except I've already intentionally secularized their spiritualism via the Heroes!!

I went to great lengths (mentally, at least) to draw distinctions (both subtle & complex) between what I felt were the two 'halves'; "spirits/Loa/ancestors" and "brews/alchemy/tonics". Of the two "Intelligence/Caster" heroes (bare minimum for such a spiritual race, if'n'ya'ask'me) is essentially a "Shadow Hunter-remake" (working in a "5th-race-addition" setting, so no reusing existing units/Heroes) called the "Medicine Mon" who focuses on Spirits!, and what is essentially a "hero-version of Witch Doctor" (always a good go-to for hero design) called the "Headshrinker" who focuses on Potions!...
And nary the two should meet (ideologically, that is).

I'm gonna have to find some way outta this. Hrm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
Spiritualism might be divided into:

1) That which comes from the Loa. These would be the big guns—direct damage, major effects, generational curses. However, the troll must give a great deal in return. This might be reserved for some kind of priestly hero unit.

2) That which comes from the ancestors. This is lesser in scope. Examples might be divination from the previously mentioned soughan skulls, or minor buffs/debuffs. Priests handle this. Proper recompense takes the form of traditional self-mortification, continuation of tribal traditions, and maybe personal acknowledgement.

3) That which comes from the spirits. Here's where shamans come in. The spirits are acknowledged, but not seen as entities deserving worship. The shaman in essence persuades the spirits to do his bidding. Thus, he has to give something in return (though in some cases the shaman could try to trick the spirit—a dangerous game, but one that's potentially lucrative).

4) That which comes from beyond. This is a grab-bag of anything that doesn't fall into the above categories. Arcane magic is the most notable example. Shadow hunters might also delve into this by tapping into the demonic realm (usually without full realization of what it is they're doing).
Alright, great! This is the kind of codifying I'm looking for. : )

However, I think I will instead define Troll spiritualism as literally that; "a system of importuning Spirits", the only primary difference between the gradation between (and naturally, the status of) said spirits. I'll also put them into the order 1-3-2:
- Super-Spirits (i.e. Loa)
- Nature-Spirits (i.e. 'just Spirits')
- Troll-Spirits (i.e. Ancestors)
, with the idea that they correspond, roughly, in order of "most -> least powerful/effective", "most -> least difficult/taxing to importune", and "fewest -> most representative members", respectively.

So the 'big-stuff' you want done involves the Loa... But there's not many of them, and this is a path fraught with danger, as the Loa are super-ascended Spirits who don't always have your best in mind. Meanwhile just about everytroll can (and does) communicate with deceased ancestors, and boy are there tons of them... But there's not a lot they end up being able to do. Meanwhile, providing the widest spectrum-ality, the "every other kind of Spirit" (mostly nature spirits & spirits of elements & spirits of stuff) are reasonably powerful & reasonably prolific; mostly Shamans & such commune with them to reasonably great effect.

I like it. This appeals to me. Moar!
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...Triumvirate has it right.
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Triumvirate; you weird.
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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
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  #38  
Old 02-25-2015, 02:30 PM
DarkAngel DarkAngel is offline

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Also, where do you think it derives? You say "natural", but is that, like, "Trollish biology" (blood/flesh?) Is it genetics, or related at all to spirituality? As an example, what could stop Troll regeneration? What could start it again, or make it stronger/more effective?
There was some fanon that grew up around Zul'Aman that Zul'jin's arm didn't grow back for one of two reasons: A) the Day Elves had devised some means to prevent Troll Regeneration during their long feud with the Trolls, or B) Zul'jin's participation in the plan to bind the Loa had displeased the spirits. Since the instance was more or less devoid of lore, fans were left guessing. The only official comment on the matter was that the devs had forgotten about Troll Regen, and by the time someone pointed it out, they had decided the idea of a one-armed boss was so cool they were just going to roll with it.

Troll regenerative powers were subsequently watered down (see Vol'jin's leader story). Apparently, they can regrow fingers, but not limbs...

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Misogyny
The whole misogyny thing fits with the cultural kit, but I know of no actual ingame evidence. Sure, playable factions have to be politically correct, but even hostile Trolls seem quite okay with independent women. TtAaO tried to walk a line of expecting women to put motherhood first while still letting them do the things we see.

(Funny how misogyny is taboo and cannibalism is a joke.)

EDIT: This may be relevant.
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Last edited by DarkAngel; 02-26-2015 at 09:54 AM.. Reason: Found relevant info
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Old 02-26-2015, 05:59 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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There was some fanon that grew up around Zul'Aman that Zul'jin's arm didn't grow back for one of two reasons: A) the Day Elves had devised some means to prevent Troll Regeneration during their long feud with the Trolls, or B) Zul'jin's participation in the plan to bind the Loa had displeased the spirits. Since the instance was more or less devoid of lore, fans were left guessing. The only official comment on the matter was that the devs had forgotten about Troll Regen, and by the time someone pointed it out, they had decided the idea of a one-armed boss was so cool they were just going to roll with it.
Yeah, I hear the "spirits" argument a lot. I kinda don't prefer that; I kinda like a "natural" regenerative ability that is just super-charged compared to Humans. But maybe...

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel
Troll regenerative powers were subsequently watered down (see Vol'jin's leader story). Apparently, they can regrow fingers, but not limbs...
Yeah, lame. I'm gonna go ahead & ignore that. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel
The whole misogyny thing fits with the cultural kit, but I know of no actual ingame evidence. Sure, playable factions have to be politically correct, but even hostile Trolls seem quite okay with independent women. TtAaO tried to walk a line of expecting women to put motherhood first while still letting them do the things we see.

(Funny how misogyny is taboo and cannibalism is a joke.)

EDIT: This may be relevant.
Yeah, lol. I think I'm going to have just a sort of "simmering misogyny", with perhaps a bit of distrust for the reliability of female warriors (warrioresses?) & such (perhaps thinking women most fit for the priestly/shamanic/witch-doctor-y castes, & childbearing). But outright? Nah, doesn't jive well.

Also, thanks for the link. I have read about that before, and it provides an interesting 'second-witness' for the Spirit-based regeneration.

~~~

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "Linguistic Logistics"? : ) We've talked about most of the other ones at this point (though I'm sure more detail could be had).
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