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  #2276  
Old 01-07-2014, 05:50 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Ragemantle, where does your avatar come from?
  #2277  
Old 01-07-2014, 06:19 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Ragemantle, where does your avatar come from?
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...toshop-Mockups

This thread maybe?
  #2278  
Old 01-07-2014, 06:45 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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And here I hoped Blizzard released some new game CG trailer while I wasn't looking.

Saaaad.
  #2279  
Old 01-07-2014, 07:40 AM
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After wow perhaps? We all know that the peace will end one day. Besides, there's many places to put down nations/states when you think of Azeroth as large as Earth. Doesn't work in wow but it could work in lore.
The thing is, WoW is the one that gave us the canon face of Kalimdor. Even in a post-WoW environment it is only logical for lore fans to expect things to be just as they were, but bigger. So there would still not be space because those pesky furbolg/centaur/quilboar will still be there in scaled up numbers. All those useless deserts will be there, scaled up.
So it would require some hefty retconning, though it may be retcons people largely agree with.

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Well, ideally every race would end up utilizing these things in ways that reflect said race's values.
Yes, exactly!

I feel safe to say that in this entire technology vs themes debate Destron is my voice.

Tauren can modernize, but they can keep their shamanistic stuff and intertwine their culture into the technology. And indeed, technology is just a practical use of naure, and in Azeroth nature is magical and hence technology.

Not only that but he made another excellent point that races and factions need to be equal. So either the horde will have to find ultra-mega-beasts in the land Pulledofass whenever Alliance advances technologically or the Alliance will never be allowed to advance.

But more than that, why would anyone sane arbitrarily reject something with obvious advantages AND live to tell the tale? It is just a crazily implausible scenario, like suggesting that Serbians and Americans are the only ones who may use electricity because Tesla!
  #2280  
Old 01-07-2014, 08:19 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I always figured that the tauren do build firearms (or at least parts of them), and that each one is a work of art, with symbols important to the hunter's family and person carved onto the stock. Each gun is personalized and blessed by the spirits (but will malfunction if used improperly or immorally).


And that gun, the work of art of the hunter's family, is promptly sold off at the first ranged weapons upgrade.

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I will say that I personally feel the Blackrock being proto-industrial definitely does fit with the thematics I felt from Warcraft II. I don't think the answer is to say that Garrosh brought these goblin plans and changed the society overnight... I think the answer is to just accept that the Blackrocks had been down this path for a while. Maybe make my headcanon official, that the name "Blackrock" is a reference to coal. (I'd also want to bring back Raiders being important to them; I don't feel they are mutually exclusive.)
Blackrock Raiders riding out to get the coal and iron ore that they know is being held by other peoples/clans? 'Need more iron!' 'Your coal is ours!' could be their warcries.
  #2281  
Old 01-07-2014, 08:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Blackrock Raiders riding out to get the coal and iron ore that they know is being held by other peoples/clans? 'Need more iron!' 'Your coal is ours!' could be their warcries.
I don't know... maybe I'd see their raider influence being more historical, with their industrial influence gradually replacing it.

Or maybe their raider clique would be different from their industrial clique in the same way that Ironforge had riflemen, engineers, and "mountain king" warriors who scoffed at the squishy modern inventors.

~~~~~
~~~~~
~~~~~

So I was reading the Bolvar article on wowpedia.

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Originally Posted by Wowpedia
Chris Metzen stated that when they wrote and finished the Wrathgate Cinematic they didn't necessarily know how things would play out. But due to a massive feedback of the community regarding the fate of Bolvar they decided to make him the new Lich King.
You bastard, Metzen. That counts as trolling.

Hmm... how're we going to end this expansion with the Lich King?

Hey Metzen! Hey Metzen! We really like Bolvar! What's going to happen with Bolvar? Make something awesome happen with Bolvar! We in the Alliance love Bolvar!

Hmm... turn Bolvar into the new Lich King and effectively remove him from the Alliance and the game itself, you say? Done!

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 01-07-2014 at 08:31 AM..
  #2282  
Old 01-07-2014, 08:43 AM
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Blackrock raiders on IronHorde-tech Vulturebikes.
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  #2283  
Old 01-07-2014, 09:49 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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I don't know... maybe I'd see their raider influence being more historical, with their industrial influence gradually replacing it.

Or maybe their raider clique would be different from their industrial clique in the same way that Ironforge had riflemen, engineers, and "mountain king" warriors who scoffed at the squishy modern inventors.
Blackrock versions of the Hells Angels Mad Max-esqe Blackrock bikers. Or you could always have them become unionized ironworkers/blacksmiths/engineers/miners.
  #2284  
Old 01-07-2014, 10:11 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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So, lets brainstorm, what are some alternatives to pure-technological development some races could use since goblin/gnome versions of science don't quite fit them?

Example-
Tauren:
Summon Sun-Rocs
Tame Thunder Lizards
Have the Sunwalkers co-opt the Yaungols Fire/oil based stuff
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:31 AM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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Harry Turtledove has some great examples of magi-tech that we could use, as opposed to traditional tech. Like keep the traditional tech to the goblins, gnomes, and orcs, but races like the humans, or especially the blood elves, should use magic as technology. You instead of building a refrigerator, build a box and have a stasis spell inside it, so that food just doesn't age. Or instead of a traditional gun, make basically a giant wand that shoots fireballs when you push the trigger. That sort of thing. Really the aesthetics of Turtledove's World at War (which is basically fantasy World War 2, replace guns with lazers that are powered by blood sacrifices and planes with dragons it's awesome) sorta fit with an evolution of WoW.
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  #2286  
Old 01-07-2014, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
So, lets brainstorm, what are some alternatives to pure-technological development some races could use since goblin/gnome versions of science don't quite fit them?

Example-
Tauren:
Summon Sun-Rocs
Tame Thunder Lizards
Have the Sunwalkers co-opt the Yaungols Fire/oil based stuff
Aye, the inclusion of magics and visual styles unique to each faction into their respective technologies should make it so that no race "teching up" would ever feel out of place, no matter how seemingly outlandish the concept. How could airships, for example, ever be made to look and feel distinctly Tauren?

Well, they've already got the whole "gigantic construction projects made entirely out of wood" thing going on for them, what with the Great gate and giant totem pole sitting in the middle of Thunder Bluff, so why not start with that? The Tauren's penchant towards animal carvings should suit our purpose rather nicely.

Imagine Tauren artisans carving and decorating a magnificent bird of wood, leather and canvas, only with wings that are fully mobile and several meters across. The bird's back is open (either partially or completely exposed) to hold a crew (or just the pilot for smaller models) of shaman and/or druids who find favourable winds on which to keep their ornithopter soaring and operational for extended periods of time.
  #2287  
Old 01-07-2014, 11:12 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Y'all know you can tweet these things to the devs right? They might actually take them into account?
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  #2288  
Old 01-07-2014, 11:15 AM
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Y'all know you can tweet these things to the devs right? They might actually take them into account?
I actually have tweeted some of these things in the past.

Who'd be the proper recipient for such odds and ends though?
  #2289  
Old 01-07-2014, 11:30 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I actually have tweeted some of these things in the past.

Who'd be the proper recipient for such odds and ends though?
Well, if you want to know if they have these things, Loreology. If you want them in a story, Micky Neilson and Kosak. Art, Chris G Robinson.
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  #2290  
Old 01-07-2014, 12:19 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Yes, exactly!

I feel safe to say that in this entire technology vs themes debate Destron is my voice.

Tauren can modernize, but they can keep their shamanistic stuff and intertwine their culture into the technology. And indeed, technology is just a practical use of naure, and in Azeroth nature is magical and hence technology.

Not only that but he made another excellent point that races and factions need to be equal. So either the horde will have to find ultra-mega-beasts in the land Pulledofass whenever Alliance advances technologically or the Alliance will never be allowed to advance.

But more than that, why would anyone sane arbitrarily reject something with obvious advantages AND live to tell the tale? It is just a crazily implausible scenario, like suggesting that Serbians and Americans are the only ones who may use electricity because Tesla!
Thank you.

It might also be interesting to examine situations in which shamanism might be more effective than magic or technology. Shamanism basically works by persuading the spirits to do something. Assuming the spirit isn't coerced, it actually wants to help the shaman in the way that's requested.

Take, for example, an area like Shadowmoon Valley that presumably has bad air. By persuading the air spirits that you're there to help (by, say, removing demons, which is something you'll have to do anyway), they provide breathable air for your base. They continue to do this for as long as you fight demons.

Magic, on the other hand, requires someone to set up and maintain a spell. This constantly drains mana and requires significant additional effort beyond merely killing demons.

So ideally, the shaman can persuade the spirits with the initial ritual, leaving both the shaman and the mage free to kill demons.


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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Blackrock Raiders riding out to get the coal and iron ore that they know is being held by other peoples/clans? 'Need more iron!' 'Your coal is ours!' could be their warcries.
I don't think that the Blackrock Clan would have the know-how to maintain an industrial base. They'd most likely have to rely on someone like the goblins (which the goblins could theoretically exploit to great advantage).
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  #2291  
Old 01-07-2014, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Aye, the inclusion of magics and visual styles unique to each faction into their respective technologies should make it so that no race "teching up" would ever feel out of place, no matter how seemingly outlandish the concept. How could airships, for example, ever be made to look and feel distinctly Tauren?

Well, they've already got the whole "gigantic construction projects made entirely out of wood" thing going on for them, what with the Great gate and giant totem pole sitting in the middle of Thunder Bluff, so why not start with that? The Tauren's penchant towards animal carvings should suit our purpose rather nicely.

Imagine Tauren artisans carving and decorating a magnificent bird of wood, leather and canvas, only with wings that are fully mobile and several meters across. The bird's back is open (either partially or completely exposed) to hold a crew (or just the pilot for smaller models) of shaman and/or druids who find favourable winds on which to keep their ornithopter soaring and operational for extended periods of time.
That would be pretty amazing, and since WoW is determined to make tauren peaceful to a fault, I can see the roots of such an invention lying in some kind of sport. We know american indians had sports, so why can't the young tauren use such constructions as a test of courage or maybe even racing. You have high bluffs and tall mountains from which you could glide, and you have giant open plains without trees. You used to have Thousand Needles where they could have really tested their courage by gliding through the tall stone spires.

Just brain storming, because I like you and your ideas.
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  #2292  
Old 01-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragemantle View Post
That would be pretty amazing, and since WoW is determined to make tauren peaceful to a fault, I can see the roots of such an invention lying in some kind of sport. We know american indians had sports, so why can't the young tauren use such constructions as a test of courage or maybe even racing. You have high bluffs and tall mountains from which you could glide, and you have giant open plains without trees. You used to have Thousand Needles where they could have really tested their courage by gliding through the tall stone spires.

Just brain storming, because I like you and your ideas.
Feats of daring may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think about the Tauren, but I don't see any reason something like that couldn't be made to work. Maybe some Tauren saw what the Pandaren could do with the Cloud serpents and figured it was the kind of thing which might be neat to do back home.

Otherwise, why not build them for the purposes of hunting? Now that they've settled down for the most part, they need to maximize the efficiency of their hunters in spotting and following herds of kodo as they migrate. Having something which allows your scouts to travel across great distances and see further across the plains than ever before would be helpful.

Still on the topic of fusing magics and the more mundane for racially distinct technologies, how about the Trolls' knack for recruiting the spirits of their dead to help the living by animating various constructs? Might it be possible for the Darkspear dead to enchant anything from armors (I'm reminded of the Freethinkers' breastplates, which would be imbued by powerful magics) to sculptures of coatls, cats and raptors, meant to honour their various patrons?
  #2293  
Old 01-07-2014, 01:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Aye, the inclusion of magics and visual styles unique to each faction into their respective technologies should make it so that no race "teching up" would ever feel out of place, no matter how seemingly outlandish the concept. How could airships, for example, ever be made to look and feel distinctly Tauren?

Well, they've already got the whole "gigantic construction projects made entirely out of wood" thing going on for them, what with the Great gate and giant totem pole sitting in the middle of Thunder Bluff, so why not start with that? The Tauren's penchant towards animal carvings should suit our purpose rather nicely.

Imagine Tauren artisans carving and decorating a magnificent bird of wood, leather and canvas, only with wings that are fully mobile and several meters across. The bird's back is open (either partially or completely exposed) to hold a crew (or just the pilot for smaller models) of shaman and/or druids who find favourable winds on which to keep their ornithopter soaring and operational for extended periods of time.

Ehhhh I dunno, that'd feel a little weird.

I think it'd be better if they levitate a chunk of ground like the floating bits from Nagrand as a mobile command center, but with shaman.

Not all 'progress' needs to be mechanical technology.
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  #2294  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:01 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I don't think that the Blackrock Clan would have the know-how to maintain an industrial base. They'd most likely have to rely on someone like the goblins (which the goblins could theoretically exploit to great advantage).
Rise of the Horde has orcish metalworking/blacksmithing before they crossed into a world of goblins and gnomes. You know what they also had? Animal husbandry--they selectively bred their wolves to produce larger mounts who could carry more heavily armored riders. You know what they also had? First aid--when the shamans lost their power to heal, they took to curing the wounded through the ordinary physical ways.

Despite that entertaining blue post a while back, I'm tired of people thinking of the orcs as brainless rockeaters. They don't need goblin mad doctors to tell them how to rub two sticks together.

All the orcs don't have to be like this, anymore than all of the humans do. But it fits with the Blackrocks.

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Originally Posted by Melisande View Post
Harry Turtledove has some great examples of magi-tech that we could use, as opposed to traditional tech. Like keep the traditional tech to the goblins, gnomes, and orcs, but races like the humans, or especially the blood elves, should use magic as technology. You instead of building a refrigerator, build a box and have a stasis spell inside it, so that food just doesn't age. Or instead of a traditional gun, make basically a giant wand that shoots fireballs when you push the trigger. That sort of thing. Really the aesthetics of Turtledove's World at War (which is basically fantasy World War 2, replace guns with lazers that are powered by blood sacrifices and planes with dragons it's awesome) sorta fit with an evolution of WoW.
I've read the first book in that series; some neat stuff. I remember that soldiers carried magical distaffs that shot arcane blasts or something, and each brigade had a low-low-level mage who would run throughout and renew the charges when they ran out.

Unicorns were like regular horses except much more intelligent, and they were often the mounts for officers.

Dragons were a terrifying weapon, but they're some of the dumbest animals alive. Dragonkeepers raise them to never spit fire unless ordered to, and dragonriders keep them under tight reign, but if you turn your back on them they'll kill you like any wild animal. And I believe "mad as a dragonkeeper" is a phrase in this universe because of all the mercury in the dragons' feces and stuff.

And then there were the archmages behind the lines who could only be compared to nuclear physicists in our world, conducting magical experiments to develop an ultimate magical weapon that they haven't discovered yet at the end of the first book.

Ooh, and there's the small kingdom in the desert resisting an invasion from one of the major powers, and one of the reasons they've survived so long is that the kingdom is in the middle of nowhere with no major ley lines passing through. Ley lines are used for magical transportation (like a railway line) and for drawing magical energy, so the invaders are unable to use their superior magecraft to defeat the tribe of magical primitives.

Googlebooks preview! http://books.google.com/books?id=vcAGcNB09TwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=into+ the+darkness+turtledove&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FXXMUqm0HqfX 2AXOy4DADA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

EDIT: Turtledove's writing has a lot of redundancies, and plenty of flaws. But the man can present a war.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 01-07-2014 at 02:07 PM..
  #2295  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Feats of daring may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think about the Tauren, but I don't see any reason something like that couldn't be made to work. Maybe some Tauren saw what the Pandaren could do with the Cloud serpents and figured it was the kind of thing which might be neat to do back home.

Otherwise, why not build them for the purposes of hunting? Now that they've settled down for the most part, they need to maximize the efficiency of their hunters in spotting and following herds of kodo as they migrate. Having something which allows your scouts to travel across great distances and see further across the plains than ever before would be helpful.

Still on the topic of fusing magics and the more mundane for racially distinct technologies, how about the Trolls' knack for recruiting the spirits of their dead to help the living by animating various constructs? Might it be possible for the Darkspear dead to enchant anything from armors (I'm reminded of the Freethinkers' breastplates, which would be imbued by powerful magics) to sculptures of coatls, cats and raptors, meant to honour their various patrons?
I mentioned the sport being something young tauren do, maybe a side effect of growing up with their new orcish brothers, being influenced by outside cultures. Otherwise I think it would be pretty cool to see a tauren gliding over the plains, blowing a horn or something to tell the hunters on the ground the movements of the herd when they are hunting. Sounds really neat to me.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Ehhhh I dunno, that'd feel a little weird.

I think it'd be better if they levitate a chunk of ground like the floating bits from Nagrand as a mobile command center, but with shaman.

Not all 'progress' needs to be mechanical technology.
Wasn't entirely clear in my post, but these giant birds wouldn't be strictly mechanical in nature. If you were to climb aboard, you wouldn't see any motors, nor gears or pulleys to tug at the wings and make them go. Just wooden wings slowly flapping in the wind which the shaman have woven into the contraption to keep it in the air.

The floating island is something I'd expect to see from Orcs, frankly (or perhaps some particularly ingenious Goblins).
  #2297  
Old 01-07-2014, 02:24 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Honestly, I like the idea better of the tauren doing aerial stuff without pilots. They just don't seem like the folks for tiny planes. And that's as much because of physiology as it is because of culture. There's a good reason that the smallest races of Azeroth are the only ones to use fighter planes on a regular basis.

Instead, how about they still do the bird-like wooden frame, but instead bind a spirit to it. Could be ancestral, could be elemental or it could even be solar. Could even make different versions for all seven options, to get a varied air force.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:26 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I couldn't see them making one that can fit multiple tauren inside of it, but I could see them designed in some way to fit a single tauren.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Honestly, I like the idea better of the tauren doing aerial stuff without pilots. They just don't seem like the folks for tiny planes. And that's as much because of physiology as it is because of culture. There's a good reason that the smallest races of Azeroth are the only ones to use fighter planes on a regular basis.

Instead, how about they still do the bird-like wooden frame, but instead bind a spirit to it. Could be ancestral, could be elemental or it could even be solar. Could even make different versions for all seven options, to get a varied air force.
Didn't shaman in game once have a totem that you could switch your view to? Sentry totem? Shaman doing something like that with the flying / gliding bird contraption could be possible and not stretch the imagination too far.
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  #2299  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:11 PM
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I just like the idea of animating a big carving rather than piloting it.

The bird just moving all on its own, but with people inside feels weird to me.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Rise of the Horde has orcish metalworking/blacksmithing before they crossed into a world of goblins and gnomes. You know what they also had? Animal husbandry--they selectively bred their wolves to produce larger mounts who could carry more heavily armored riders. You know what they also had? First aid--when the shamans lost their power to heal, they took to curing the wounded through the ordinary physical ways.
Sure, but I was talking about a hypothetical industrial revolution type of scenario (like this Iron Horde that'll be appearing in WoD). The orcs certainly had the basics of a medieval army down, and they're certainly capable of learning how to industrialize. However, I don't think they'd be able to do that right out of Draenor, and would probably need goblin guidance.

In WoD's case, they're indirectly getting goblin assistance through Garrosh (who probably has some goblin loyalists with him).
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