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  #26  
Old 03-24-2014, 04:49 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Well, his shoulders have jaws and eyes, which I assume would represent Mephisto and Baal. As for the four lesser evils, I'd say they were his/her arms and legs. Remember, the dragon which created hell died long ago, and much of its power was broken. What Diablo became was the closest thing to the dragon that could be, but still wasn't the dragon.

In other words, just because he united the heads, doesn't mean he'd become the dragon.
We were also told that Diablo does not have a fixed form and manifests how Diablo wishes for purposes of fear, so this could also just be him being Diablo.

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I can accept that the Dialogue and such made the Demon Lords and evils come off as Saturday morning cartoon villains. I definitely think it was beneath Diablo. In my opinion, it would have been more interesting if while fighting you could see him off in the distance, the background, plowing through Angels, and never actually talking to the Hero, make the Hero seem like they're not even that significant to be acknowledged.

In that, the game definitely focused too much on the Hero, and that seems to be how it differed from the original games. In the other two, you were some scrub from nowhere who arrived in a troubled place looking for fame, fortune, and power. Your role was ambiguous, and people were willing to take advantage of your suicide wish for their own ends before they realized you had a -chance- to actually do great things.

And -every- act was like that. But from the moment of the beginning in Diablo 3, everyone seems to acknowledge your character as the Hero. The good guys, the bad guys, the town drunk, etc...
The game also ended way too optimistically for a mature gothic fantasy.

Compare this:


to this:


and this:


Diablo 3 represents one hell of a shift in the game's tone.

I like the idea of Diablo's working through mortal manifestations to seed terror and political discord among mortals, though I doubt we'll see a return to that given the current shift to high cosmology of heaven vs. hell being in the forefront and rainbows shining out of the asses of the nephalem.
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  #27  
Old 03-24-2014, 04:59 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I didn't mind Diablo 3 ending optimistically because its ending was supposed to -be- the ending for the series in a way. We were told (I can't remember where) that this time, Diablo was going down for good. That said, I always questioned that ending because Imperius still hated mortals, Lilith and Aurius (was that his name) were still out there, Maltheal was unaccounted for, and Adria was running free.
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  #28  
Old 03-24-2014, 05:11 PM
Egrem Egrem is offline

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It's clear that most of the game's polish went into Act 1.
I feel like they could have done much more with Act IV in particular.

Rather than being a cold enchanted armaddon, the Aspect of Pain could have been a shadow Duriel that would look and fight like the original boss. Likewise for the other six evils (with the Aspect of Terror being a D2-style Diablo).

Each hell rift should have led to a different demonic realm, chosen at random. There would be seven in total (even if you didn't need to visit them all in any given playthrough) and they'd all have distinct scenery and different types of enemies. The Prime Evil should have been calling forth minions from the Realm of Destruction, the Realm of Anguish and so on, not just from the Realm of Terror.
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  #29  
Old 03-24-2014, 05:12 PM
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link pls?
I think it's in the audio file spoilers a number of threads down.

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I didn't mind Diablo 3 ending optimistically because its ending was supposed to -be- the ending for the series in a way. We were told (I can't remember where) that this time, Diablo was going down for good. That said, I always questioned that ending because Imperius still hated mortals, Lilith and Aurius (was that his name) were still out there, Maltheal was unaccounted for, and Adria was running free.
Doesn't matter. It's terribly inconsistent with the IP and campy as all hell.
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  #30  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:38 PM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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The game takes hero worship, of the players character, to such a ridiculous level I don't think we'll ever return to what made D2 such a classic. I kind of hope Reaper will just...ignore whatever the hell happened in D3, while learning from its many mistakes, mainly centered around the villains talking to you.

As for Diablo coming back, I don't mind it, but it'd be better if it was in a more organic matter. They already came up with the soulstones super early, while the whole concept of evil that can never be truly defeated would've worked better. Diablo appears every few however many years after his previous death, reaks havoc, has to be put down til he regenerates again. There we go unlimited justification for sequels and you can really up the gothicness of that whole never ending hell for the people of Sanctuary. I mean Warhammer manages to do that with it's daemons, it's not exactly hard.
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  #31  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:47 PM
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I'd prefer a return to the simplistic D1-style dungeon crawl with nobody heroes, but I would gladly take a return to D2-style heroes.

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As for Diablo coming back, I don't mind it, but it'd be better if it was in a more organic matter. They already came up with the soulstones super early, while the whole concept of evil that can never be truly defeated would've worked better. Diablo appears every few however many years after his previous death, reaks havoc, has to be put down til he regenerates again. There we go unlimited justification for sequels and you can really up the gothicness of that whole never ending hell for the people of Sanctuary. I mean Warhammer manages to do that with it's daemons, it's not exactly hard.
That's a great fix.

At this point we may have to wish for a setting reboot as opposed to a sequel that would somehow return the story to its roots. The only way around it would be the creation of a new worldstone.
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  #32  
Old 03-24-2014, 08:09 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I'd prefer a return to the simplistic D1-style dungeon crawl with nobody heroes, but I would gladly take a return to D2-style heroes.

That's a great fix.

At this point we may have to wish for a setting reboot as opposed to a sequel that would somehow return the story to its roots. The only way around it would be the creation of a new worldstone.
Perhaps it can be managed? Suppose Diablo does something with the Black Soulstone, consuming it in a way that permanently binds the other Lords of Hell to his essence. Without the need of the Soulstone or a vessel anymore, he becomes intrinsically connected to Hell, and as a result, can never be banished to the Void. Everytime he is slain, he regenerates in Hell, no demons there powerful or foolish enough to challenge him, for he has -become- Hell itself.

[Edit]: The idea is with the 7 Evils combined into one, he's connected to each one's own personal realm of Hell. Since he's connected to them all, he can never be permanently destroyed unless Hell itself is destroyed, which isn't possible for reasons.
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  #33  
Old 03-24-2014, 09:11 PM
Egrem Egrem is offline

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Originally Posted by Melisande View Post
As for Diablo coming back, I don't mind it, but it'd be better if it was in a more organic matter. They already came up with the soulstones super early, while the whole concept of evil that can never be truly defeated would've worked better. Diablo appears every few however many years after his previous death, reaks havoc, has to be put down til he regenerates again. There we go unlimited justification for sequels and you can really up the gothicness of that whole never ending hell for the people of Sanctuary. I mean Warhammer manages to do that with it's daemons, it's not exactly hard.
That is how the demons in Diablo work. Killing them puts them out of commission temporarily, but sooner or later they'll reform in the Burning Hells and return to business as usual.



The idea behind the soulstones was to keep the Prime Evils imprisoned and take them out of the picture indefinitely... but that didn't work out because they were still able to influence (and later possess) mortals. The backup plan was to shatter the stones on the Hellforge and banish their spirits to the Abyss... but that didn't work out because Adria called them back.

If the Seven Evils somehow escape the Black Soulstone, they'd probably return to being normal "death is merely a setback" demons.
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  #34  
Old 03-25-2014, 12:04 AM
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Can angels be "reborn" from the Crystal Arch?
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  #35  
Old 03-25-2014, 08:58 AM
Egrem Egrem is offline

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Tyrael managed to reform himself (over a twenty year period) after being destroyed... but he might be an exception, since one of the journal entries suggests dead angels aren't so much reborn as replaced:

"The angel Izual was Tyrael's lieutenant, but he was captured by the enemy after an ill-advised assault upon the Hellforge. Izual surrendered to demonic corruption and revealed the secrets of the soulstones to the Prime Evils. Tyrael claimed that Izual was slain years ago, but his replacement has never emerged from the Crystal Arch..." - Archangel Itherael
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  #36  
Old 03-25-2014, 04:37 PM
Blayze Blayze is offline

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The game takes hero worship, of the players character, to such a ridiculous level I don't think we'll ever return to what made D2 such a classic.
Check out the lore book audio in D3 relating to the D1 events, then the audio relating to the D2 events. The D1 events involve actual characters, but the D2 events don't.

Don't believe me? Check out the Cain's Journal audio entries, and take a drink every time he mentions "brave heroes."
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  #37  
Old 03-25-2014, 05:51 PM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
Check out the lore book audio in D3 relating to the D1 events, then the audio relating to the D2 events. The D1 events involve actual characters, but the D2 events don't.

Don't believe me? Check out the Cain's Journal audio entries, and take a drink every time he mentions "brave heroes."
Well I meant more, just how important the player character is, how 'special' they are, how they have godlike powers, so on. It's quite ludicrous.
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  #38  
Old 03-25-2014, 07:41 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Well I meant more, just how important the player character is, how 'special' they are, how they have godlike powers, so on. It's quite ludicrous.
Would it be as bad if they had kept the team dynamic from the previous two games?
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  #39  
Old 03-25-2014, 11:33 PM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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Would it be as bad if they had kept the team dynamic from the previous two games?
No, though I mean I'd be slightly annoyed if they played up the nephalim, but I just tend to dislike stories that emphasize the player character as super important. (One of my favorite video game stories is in FFXI, where the player character is kind of just there and helps out the real important characters) But I never had a problem with D1 or D2's heroes as they were never this puffed up.
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  #40  
Old 03-25-2014, 11:44 PM
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Diablo 2 had better gameplay, but I preferred Diablo 1 in terms of its tone, mood, and focused setting.

I would love to see an updated Diablo 1 game focusing on dungeon crawling in a site near a single town, and as you delve into the madness of the dungeon, you are also delving into the lives and pasts of the townsfolk. "Such horrible, pathetic people. Are these people even worth saving?" you think to yourself, or is that just the voice in the back of your head gnawing away at your conscience?
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  #41  
Old 03-26-2014, 07:58 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Tyrael managed to reform himself (over a twenty year period) after being destroyed... but he might be an exception, since one of the journal entries suggests dead angels aren't so much reborn as replaced:

"The angel Izual was Tyrael's lieutenant, but he was captured by the enemy after an ill-advised assault upon the Hellforge. Izual surrendered to demonic corruption and revealed the secrets of the soulstones to the Prime Evils. Tyrael claimed that Izual was slain years ago, but his replacement has never emerged from the Crystal Arch..." - Archangel Itherael
Its also worth noting that Tyrael is the Archangel of Justice, an angel who sits on the Angiris Council. As far as I understand, its only really powerful demons we hear about coming back after being killed, such as the 7 Evils of Hell, though a few others are also mentioned in various novels I believe. It seems to me that the same rule could apply to the Archangels. Which... makes me wonder if Tyrael dies as a human, will he come back as an Angel?
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  #42  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:02 AM
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Its also worth noting that Tyrael is the Archangel of Justice, an angel who sits on the Angiris Council. As far as I understand, its only really powerful demons we hear about coming back after being killed, such as the 7 Evils of Hell, though a few others are also mentioned in various novels I believe. It seems to me that the same rule could apply to the Archangels. Which... makes me wonder if Tyrael dies as a human, will he come back as an Angel?
Im gonna go with no for the fact it would make his whole learning to be mortal thing pointless, and yes because even when asked they were as vague as shit at blizzcon.
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  #43  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:14 AM
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He's not human, just "mortal".
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  #44  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:18 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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He's not human, just "mortal".
and they don't know what that means either.
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  #45  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:26 AM
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doesn't tyrael become the archangel of Wisdom after the prime evil dies?
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  #46  
Old 03-26-2014, 09:31 AM
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doesn't Tyrael become the archangel of Wisdom after the prime evil dies?
Yep.
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  #47  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:01 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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he didn't become the archangel as much as maltheal wasn't there while tyreal took his chair.
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:14 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I don't know. It always felt to me that no one was impressed by Tyrael becoming mortal as far as story goes. It ultimately felt like a weak gesture that ultimately gimped him (even if at the end it had some benefit since he didn't fall to pieces when Diablo was corrupting the Crystal Arch). If Tyrael died in Reaper of Souls and came back as himself, an Archangel, once more, I'd be fine with it. I doubt its like anyone -knows- what'll happen to him when he dies as a mortal anyways.
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  #49  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:22 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by neoshadow View Post
he didn't become the archangel as much as maltheal wasn't there while tyreal took his chair.
The Book of Tyrael says after he declared himself Wisdom the Crystal Arch did some resonance thing which made it official, its implied to be the only reason Imperius accepts his new position.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 03-26-2014 at 10:24 AM..
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  #50  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:22 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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also according to the book, it made his life really awkward, as food and sleep aren't needed in the high heavens.
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