Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-17-2014, 11:34 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,572

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Because it's totally fine to kill someone if they can defend themselves, amirite?
I never said anything about the morality of it. I took issue with Fojar saying it was cold-blooded. Beyond that, you can make your own judgements.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-17-2014, 11:51 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

So attacking and killing someone that can defend themselves is not cold-blooded murder?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:58 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,572

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
So attacking and killing someone that can defend themselves is not cold-blooded murder?
You wanna call it murder, whatever (the Alliance would never try them for it, they'd just throw them back into their little useless camps). But in two sided combat it's not cold blooded. Those soldiers weren't caught unawares, this wasn't a sneak attack, they weren't helpless by any means. The only disadvantage they really had was that they were stupid enough to call the orcs out before they had any kind of tactical advantage. If they'd been intelligent, they might have called for reinforcements, but they'd definitely have deployed, surrounded the orcs, and then maybe have given the speech about violating the internment act. As it was, they practically invited the orcs to attack them. We can probably look to this as the first appearance of Alliance based "Lawful Stupid"

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 09-17-2014 at 08:19 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-17-2014, 05:06 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
The only disadvantage they really had was that they were stupid enough to call the orcs out before they had any kind of tactical advantage. If they'd been intelligent, they might have called for reinforcements, but they'd definitely have deployed, surrounded the orcs, and then maybe have given the speech about violating the internment act. As it was, they practically invited the orcs to attack them. We can probably look to this as the first appearance of Alliance based "Lawful Stupid"
If they hadn't used peasants to rebuild that bridge in the cutscene, Thrall would still be trapped on that bit of land. Trapped forever...
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-17-2014, 05:36 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,572

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
If they hadn't used peasants to rebuild that bridge in the cutscene, Thrall would still be trapped on that bit of land. Trapped forever...
Mannoroth would have had an infinitely easier time finding the orcs.

Actually, I have to wonder what Thrall's plan was there. Cut down trees and build some ships on the spot? He might have been able to pull that off.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-17-2014, 07:17 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Say what you will about the rest of it, but cold blood? Humans picked that fight, not orcs. And cold blood only works if the victims aren't armed and fighting back. Humans called orcs out, orcs responded, and took the spoils of the battle. End of mission.
Agreed, killing cops is okay as long as they're trying to arrest you.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-17-2014, 08:13 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,572

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Agreed, killing cops is okay as long as they're trying to arrest you.
Not what I said. You obviously (conveniently perhaps?) missed the conversation I had with Westlee on the subject. Take about 60 seconds to read the first few posts on this page and you'll realize we're past this point.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-17-2014, 09:04 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

Eternal
Arashi's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,796

Default

Oh it said LEAST favorite hahaha...

Yeah i don't like most of the fraction leaders. God they are so boring.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-17-2014, 11:59 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

Arch-Druid
Ol'Yoggy's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,390

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Agreed, killing cops is okay as long as they're trying to arrest you.
It's not a police action. If it was it's more, the cops immediately go in guns blazing the moment they see you. When two armies face off, or guerrillas launch a raid on an army post.that's not murder. That's military combat.

Thrall ultimately tried to limit casualties as much as he could when freeing the camps, and many of the people in the camps were the children of the veterans who unlike their parents were blameless yet still subject to the shit conditions of the camp. Incidentally that's my main reason for saying the faction war is pretty much Daelin's fault (hence why he's burning in hell). The orcs may have been starting to let go, realize human's aren't all bad..Daelin's genocidal attack basically destroyed whatever good will Jaina built up because at best they think most humans are Daelin.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:06 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Daelin did nothing wrong.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 09-18-2014, 10:01 AM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

Arch-Druid
Ol'Yoggy's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,390

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Daelin did nothing wrong.
His perspective was understandable.But the fact is the orcs did have a truce with the alliance before Daelin attacked; his actions would have helped reignite a lot of bad blood (I already explained how orcs who grew up in the camps would resent humans). He bares responsibility for what happened afterwards to an extent.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-18-2014, 10:22 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
His perspective was understandable.But the fact is the orcs did have a truce with the alliance before Daelin attacked; his actions would have helped reignite a lot of bad blood (I already explained how orcs who grew up in the camps would resent humans). He bares responsibility for what happened afterwards to an extent.
Implying the Orcs/Horde wouldn't have found some other excuse (see; Internment Camps) to be butthurt anyway.

Christ, my posting quality has been devolving into TP levels recently.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-18-2014, 11:01 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,085

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
His perspective was understandable.But the fact is the orcs did have a truce with the alliance before Daelin attacked; his actions would have helped reignite a lot of bad blood (I already explained how orcs who grew up in the camps would resent humans). He bares responsibility for what happened afterwards to an extent.
Why would Daelin recognize a truce or treaty he knew nothing of and never endorsed?

Honestly, that should have been a wake up call for the Horde. That they can't run from or bury their past, but it seems that's all they've ever done. That they need to actually answer what they've done and compensate their victims.

Otherwise they'll keep getting attacked...if the Alliance weren't stupid of course.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-18-2014, 11:07 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

Eternal
Menel'dirion's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The most gorgeous place in the world (if you've been there you know what I'm talking about)
Posts: 2,572

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
Why would Daelin recognize a truce or treaty he knew nothing of and never endorsed?

Honestly, that should have been a wake up call for the Horde. That they can't run from or bury their past, but it seems that's all they've ever done. That they need to actually answer what they've done and compensate their victims.

Otherwise they'll keep getting attacked...if the Alliance weren't stupid of course.
And who in the Alliance was in a state to attack them? Ironforge was the only Alliance Nation that hadn't just been smashed in the face by a giant boulder, and they've never really had a navy (I'm not sure they do yet).

In the mean time, they certainly weren't running from their past when they defeated Daelin.

Hell, like I said before, the Alliance is lucky Thrall and Rexxar weren't the sort to conquer, because after Theramore, I don't think the Alliance could have stopped them.

I should really get on topic.

I don't share people's hatred of Thrall, Anduin, Malfurion or Tirion (I actually like most of them with the exception of Malfurion, in whom I have no interest). Even characters that I hate, such as Garithos and Garrosh, I hate because they were meant for me to hate, so I don't complain about them. They serve their purpose.

I'd say the joke characters are the ones that bother me the most. Caricatures such as Budd Nedreck, Harrison Jones (definitely Harrison Jones) and that idiotic troll who sells soap on a rope (albeit there are fewer of these characters that I've noticed Horde side). Oh, and the Rambo caricature from Redridge. I suppose if there's a Horde Character I've got a problem with it's gonna be Rend and Maim. They seem like such a waste to me. Back in the Warcraft II days, I used to imagine them undermining Blackhand, riding out with the raiders he supposedly disbanded, Rend moving up to the Black Rock while Maim maintained the Black Tooth Grin.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 09-18-2014 at 03:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-18-2014, 11:24 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

Eternal
Arashi's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,796

Default

Because Thrall went from a great character to a shitty character that is always spared the consequences of his many many mistakes that led to pain and suffering of others.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-21-2014, 01:33 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Alliance:

Velen. He and his race are a bunch of Mary Sues

Moira. Ugly fat stupid bitch

Vereesa. Arrogant and stupid

Horde:

The flawless orc characters.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-21-2014, 01:43 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,277

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Implying the Orcs/Horde wouldn't have found some other excuse (see; Internment Camps) to be butthurt anyway.

Christ, my posting quality has been devolving into TP levels recently.
It really has. You are becoming the Alliance version of TP. Good evening.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-21-2014, 01:49 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,773

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Christ, my posting quality has been devolving into TP levels recently.
The difference is you can atleast notice that, and laugh about it/at yourself.

TP is a different story altogether.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09-21-2014, 04:49 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
It's not a police action. If it was it's more, the cops immediately go in guns blazing the moment they see you. When two armies face off, or guerrillas launch a raid on an army post.that's not murder. That's military combat.

Thrall ultimately tried to limit casualties as much as he could when freeing the camps, and many of the people in the camps were the children of the veterans who unlike their parents were blameless yet still subject to the shit conditions of the camp. Incidentally that's my main reason for saying the faction war is pretty much Daelin's fault (hence why he's burning in hell). The orcs may have been starting to let go, realize human's aren't all bad..Daelin's genocidal attack basically destroyed whatever good will Jaina built up because at best they think most humans are Daelin.
Mm yes tell me more about how trying to re-imprison prisoners after a jailbreak isn't a police action.

I'd also like to hear more about how the Orcs getting their feelings hurt and reacting by embarking on a war of extermination is the fault of the person who hurt their feelings and not the Orcs.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 09-21-2014, 11:56 PM
Melisande Melisande is offline

Ranger
Melisande's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 306
BattleTag: Eimi#1918

Default

For least favorite Alliance character...does Tirion count? Because it so Tirion, that self righteous blind spineless paladin.

Otherwise MoP Varian for, while he did mellow out and that's fine, he forgot that past Varian had damn good reasons for being pissed off.

As for the Horde it has to be Thrall. I mean I hate Sylvanas, but her actions are meant to be hated...at least half the time. The other half of the time you are just supposed to forget anything but her midriff.

However Thrall is meant to be one of, if not the overarching hero of Warcraft, the saviour of Azeroth...and he's a terrible leader, and has made some serious mistakes that no one ever gets to call him out on. Someone compared Thrall to Londo from Babylon 5, and it kind of works, in that both of them put me in power who basically turned out to be Hitler. However Londo is broken by seeing this, becomes a different person and tries to make things right in what little ways he can. Thrall...acts exactly the same as he's always been.
__________________
Never forget. Never forgive. Yoachim....er Daelin! I will avenge you!

Quote:
"Do they not know who we are, my brethren? We are the chosen of the Emperor, the scions of Terra. We are dominion and we are numberless. We are war itself and the death of all who oppose us. We are Humanity and we shall educate our ignorant foes as to the true meaning of that word!"
--Lord Inquisitor Aedrick Mantel of the Ordo Xenos
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:34 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

Eternal Watcher
Yaskaleh's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The heart of Scania
Posts: 18,625
BattleTag: Yaskaleh#1817

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melisande View Post
For least favorite Alliance character...does Tirion count? Because it so Tirion, that self righteous blind spineless paladin.

Otherwise MoP Varian for, while he did mellow out and that's fine, he forgot that past Varian had damn good reasons for being pissed off.

As for the Horde it has to be Thrall. I mean I hate Sylvanas, but her actions are meant to be hated...at least half the time. The other half of the time you are just supposed to forget anything but her midriff.

However Thrall is meant to be one of, if not the overarching hero of Warcraft, the saviour of Azeroth...and he's a terrible leader, and has made some serious mistakes that no one ever gets to call him out on. Someone compared Thrall to Londo from Babylon 5, and it kind of works, in that both of them put me in power who basically turned out to be Hitler. However Londo is broken by seeing this, becomes a different person and tries to make things right in what little ways he can. Thrall...acts exactly the same as he's always been.
Meli, the lost! You should post more often.
__________________

Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 09-22-2014, 11:48 AM
Melisande Melisande is offline

Ranger
Melisande's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 306
BattleTag: Eimi#1918

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
Meli, the lost! You should post more often.
Yeah I've been rather busy irl, but the expansion speculation at least had me interested. I still like to talk about WoW lore, though the new models are now as much of a turn off for me as I thought the story would be. Also I post a lot on SA now.
__________________
Never forget. Never forgive. Yoachim....er Daelin! I will avenge you!

Quote:
"Do they not know who we are, my brethren? We are the chosen of the Emperor, the scions of Terra. We are dominion and we are numberless. We are war itself and the death of all who oppose us. We are Humanity and we shall educate our ignorant foes as to the true meaning of that word!"
--Lord Inquisitor Aedrick Mantel of the Ordo Xenos
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 09-22-2014, 09:26 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

Arch-Druid
Ol'Yoggy's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,390

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Mm yes tell me more about how trying to re-imprison prisoners after a jailbreak isn't a police action.

I'd also like to hear more about how the Orcs getting their feelings hurt and reacting by embarking on a war of extermination is the fault of the person who hurt their feelings and not the Orcs.

He didn't hurt their feelings. He tried to commit mass murder. He wanted to exterminate every man woman and child. Daelin was a monster by that point, and yes he deserved to die for what he did. Jaina did the right thing allowing the Horde to kill his ass.

Also the horde DID try to limit civilian casualties during the camp liberations.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:07 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
He didn't hurt their feelings. He tried to commit mass murder. He wanted to exterminate every man woman and child. Daelin was a monster by that point, and yes he deserved to die for what he did. Jaina did the right thing allowing the Horde to kill his ass.

Also the horde DID try to limit civilian casualties during the camp liberations.
So let's see:

Daelin: Wanted to commit mass murder = horrible monster

Horde: Actually committed mass murder = victims
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 09-22-2014, 10:25 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
(hence why he's burning in hell)
Unless you're as bad as Arthas/Sylvanas, you don't go to Warcraft's Hell. And since generally speaking humans go into the Light...
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
characterization, shitty writing

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.