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Old 09-26-2014, 04:55 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Orc Icon (War3) Sympathy for the Devil

Thought I'd write this after seeing the Nagrand cinematic (the one where Thrall and Garrosh have their final mak'gora) from the Warlords of Draenor beta because if got me thinking about Garrosh Hellscream again. I'm not sure why exactly, but I've always had sympathy for Garrosh. He's someone that obviously has mental and emotional problems. Insecure, low self-esteem, bi-polar and what must have been a tremendously lonely individual. I agree with him; Thrall failed Garrosh. He should never have been given such an important responsibility as Warchief and was then just abandoned by the one person that ever took an interest in him. Of course Garrosh wasn't ready to be Warchief. Thrall could have made Cairne, Vol'jin or even some regency council that included Drek'thar, Saurfang and Eitrigg if he felt that he really needed to leave Orgrimmar to deal with the Cataclysm.

I'm not trying to defend what Garrosh did when he was in power because obviously what he had done was morally-inexcusable (i.e. mana-bombing Theramore, enslavement, torture of innocents, general war-mongering etc) but he should never have been put in that position to begin with. For whatever his faults and self-delusions, Garrosh saw himself as person that was trying to do right by the orcs. He genuinely believed that he had to be the way that he was if his people were to survive and flourish. If Thrall had stopped to actually mentor him and show him what it meant to be a true leader then none of what Garrosh did would have happened. And if Thrall then thought that Hellscream was truly helpless and wouldn't live up to the mantle of his father, then he should never have left him in charge of the Horde to begin with.

Thrall failed Garrosh. That's my point here. I couldn't believe how arrogant and self-righteous Thrall sounded when confronting Garrosh at Nagrand there. He literally took none of the responsibility for what happened; he just absolved himself entirely when he was the one that created Garrosh to begin with (and in more ways than one: Thrall was the one that went to Nagrand all those years ago and filled Garrosh's head with ideas about his father and the Horde.) Thrall has to take responsibility for what happened during Hellscream's tenure. Anyone agree?

Last edited by Shaman; 09-27-2014 at 12:13 PM.. Reason: laid traps for troubadors
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:58 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Why was what Garrosh did wrong, when the Alliance has done just as much or similar?

Mana-bombed Theramore, which was confirmed by devs to be a morally ok target? What about the entire orc town raised and destroyed with a tank in red ridge? Just as brutal and just as sure fire.

Torture? Quite a few quests has you torturing people for info.

Garrosh wasn't the best, but he was far from the devil. The failures lie not in Garrosh, but in the system that Thrall and the Orcs refuse to address. Their culture is what's evil. Garrosh was just a victim of it.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:20 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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He wouldn't be much of a scapegoat if he wasn't a devil, now would he?
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Why was what Garrosh did wrong, when the Alliance has done just as much or similar?
Because they haven't.

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Mana-bombed Theramore, which was confirmed by devs to be a morally ok target? What about the entire orc town raised and destroyed with a tank in red ridge? Just as brutal and just as sure fire.
I know that you're being intentionally glib, but the Blackrock orcs didn't own that land. That was Stormwind territory and they were an active, extremely hostile force that was raising an army allied with black dragons to kill innocent civilians without provocation. They are members of the Dark Horde, an extreme faction of Blackhand loyalists who stay true to the ways of the Old Horde, including demon worship, enslavement of dragons, and needless bloodshed. They cannot be compared to a target like Theramore which, while a legitimate military target, was largely a non-combatant in the Alliance-Horde conflict and host to a large civilian population of Lordaeronian refugees from the Third War.

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Torture? Quite a few quests has you torturing people for info.
No one has ever faulted Garrosh for torture, everyone is aware that both sides practice it. We fault Garrosh for attempted genocide, desecration of foreign lands, abuse of the elements, and intentional misuse of extremely dangerous, dark powers.

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Garrosh wasn't the best, but he was far from the devil. The failures lie not in Garrosh, but in the system that Thrall and the Orcs refuse to address. Their culture is what's evil. Garrosh was just a victim of it.
The orcs' culture is pretty bad, but it is not evil, it's pragmatic and survivalist but without any care for conservation or respect for others. Garrosh himself may not have started evil, but no one does. His influence was negative to orcish society as a whole because, when it came down to it, he felt the Horde should reflect him and not that he should reflect the Horde. If he had done the latter, he would not have alienated its member races (including the majority of orcs according to Twitter).
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:35 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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It's awfully damn annoying to argue with Horde players when Blizzard keeps feeding them bullshit to defend their faction with.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:37 PM
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It's awfully damn annoying to argue with Horde players when Blizzard keeps feeding them bullshit to defend their faction with.
I'm so sorry that the lore and the company that makes it don't support your personal point of view.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:39 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Why was what Garrosh did wrong, when the Alliance has done just as much or similar?

Mana-bombed Theramore, which was confirmed by devs to be a morally ok target? What about the entire orc town raised and destroyed with a tank in red ridge? Just as brutal and just as sure fire.
The atrocity part of Theramore was using the mana-bomb, not destroying it, but how it was destroyed. Baine even threatened to have the tauren leave the Horde if Garrosh ever did anything like it again. Queue Darkspear Rebellion when he blows up the Vale.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:42 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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The big thing is that Garrosh didn't want to be Warchief and Thrall chose him anyways.

So, you had everyone saying that it would be a bad idea including Garrosh and he chose him anyways.

That fuck up isn't really recognized.
Other than Thrall walking away in a forlorn mood or something it doesn't really show it.

But then again, maybe that's part of Thrall's character. He can't recognize his own faults and fuck ups.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:44 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Garrosh was a grown fucking adult. Thrall may have pushed him into the position but he had decent reasons for it, left him with helpers, and if I recall correctly, didn't force him to accept, only insisted. Garrosh accepted, he disregarded his helpers and he made his own choices. Thrall isn't completely blameless but I feel that this whole blaming everything on Thrall is ridiculous.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:44 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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The big thing is that Garrosh didn't want to be Warchief and Thrall chose him anyways.

So, you had everyone saying that it would be a bad idea including Garrosh and he chose him anyways.

That fuck up isn't really recognized.
Other than Thrall walking away in a forlorn mood or something it doesn't really show it.

But then again, maybe that's part of Thrall's character. He can't recognize his own faults and fuck ups.
I agree that Thrall fucked up.

That said, Garrosh is just as resistant to recognising his own faults and failures. In that sense, he and Thrall are not so different in the end.

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Garrosh was a grown fucking adult. Thrall may have pushed him into the position but he had decent reasons for it, left him with helpers, and if I recall correctly, didn't force him to accept, only insisted. Garrosh accepted, he disregarded his helpers and he made his own choices. Thrall isn't completely blameless but I feel that this whole blaming everything on Thrall is ridiculous.
Also this.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:51 PM
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I feel like the cinematic wasn't the right place and time for Thrall to admit his mistakes. How anticlimactic would it be for him to tell Garrosh "Good sir, you are right. Part of the blame lies with me, but you must admit that you share the blame too because [...]". Anyways, hasn't Thrall already admitted that he was wrong? Does he have to hold a debate with Garrosh, while fighting him? How many of us admit our mistakes during a fight or heated argument?

And... what the two posters above have said so far.

That said, I do feel sympathy for him.

Last edited by Nazja; 09-26-2014 at 06:54 PM..
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:01 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I feel like the cinematic wasn't the right place and time for Thrall to admit his mistakes. How anticlimactic would it be for him to tell Garrosh "Good sir, you are right. Part of the blame lies with me, but you must admit that you share the blame too because [...]". Anyways, hasn't Thrall already admitted that he was wrong? Does he have to hold a debate with Garrosh, while fighting him? How many of us admit our mistakes during a fight or heated argument?

And... what the two posters above have said so far.

That said, I do feel sympathy for him.
Yeah, really even if one insists that Thrall owes an explanation (or, ugh, apology) for his decisions, Garrosh' isn't really the person to whom he owes them. Any seeming obligation he owes to Garrosh is really just Garrosh dismissing his own complicity in things.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:49 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I'm so sorry that the lore and the company that makes it don't support your personal point of view.
This is a really bad post because most Blizzard writing is actually knuckle-draggingly stupid and bad.
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:09 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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This is a really bad post because most Blizzard writing is actually knuckle-draggingly stupid and bad.
The part about Blizzard being bad with the lore is true, but my point is that it's still the lore. There is nothing you can do about that except argue about it with other people, but it's not going to change short of a retcon.
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:45 PM
Melisande Melisande is offline

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I will say that WoD has done a much better job of making Garrosh seem sympathetic I guess. Now I hate Thrall so him beating the shit out of Thrall is the best way into my heart. But I legitimately felt sorry for him at the end. I read a theory on another forum that this is a subtle way to prepare Thrall to become a villain, and while I doubt it's true, I want to believe.

Thrall showing little to no emotion, brushing off his part in this, are not the characteristics of a 'good' character. Now granted as Fojar said, at it's best Blizzard is pulpy fun, so I think I'm seeing too much subtlety into this, but I mean let's look at a really good piece of media, Babylon 5 and the parallels between Londo and Thrall.

Thrall 'accidentally' appointed Orc Hitler, while Londo actively lobbied to Centauri Hitler onto the throne. However after the Hitler's had performed their acts of Hitlery Londo breaks down. His psyche, his world view, his beliefs are shattered. He emerges a changed man, humbled, penitent. Even though their actions are not his fault, he still recognizes he has some of the blame, and he tries to work to fix it. Thrall, as we just saw, brushes it off like it never fucking happened.

Also watching Garrosh hold down Thrall and beat him is therapeutic.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:24 AM
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The part about Blizzard being bad with the lore is true, but my point is that it's still the lore. There is nothing you can do about that except argue about it with other people, but it's not going to change short of a retcon.
And reality itself was changed, just so that the Horde would never have to so much as utter an apology.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:34 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I still harken back to the Shattering, when the following happened:

Thrall: Ok so the world has gone to shit and the elements are being cranky so I gotta go away to somewhere for a while with my wife thing. Gonna leave a Warchief in charge till I get back

Vol'jin, Baine, Cairne, Everybody Else: ok

Thrall: It'll be you, Garrosh

Cairne: wtf

Vol'jin: huh??? wat bout me mon

Garrosh: uhhhhhhh but I'd make a terrible warchief just let me kill things on the battlefield i'm not a politician

Thrall: *already gone* CAN'T HEAR YOU BYE LOVE YOU BE GOOD
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:20 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Garrosh was a grown fucking adult. Thrall may have pushed him into the position but he had decent reasons for it, left him with helpers, and if I recall correctly, didn't force him to accept, only insisted. Garrosh accepted, he disregarded his helpers and he made his own choices. Thrall isn't completely blameless but I feel that this whole blaming everything on Thrall is ridiculous.
This, so much.
Yes, it was a mistake to put him in charge, but Thrall was aware of Garrosh's flaws. That's why he gave him seasoned and reasonable advisors.
Plus, he was kinda out of options. Saurfang and Cairne were considered too old and the only real worthy successor would have been Dranosh Saurfang had he not been killed at the Wrathgate.
Garrosh made the choice to disregard all reason and council. That's not on Thrall.
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Old 09-27-2014, 04:13 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I'm so sorry that the lore and the company that makes it don't support your personal point of view.
The Horde is like someone's description of Noxus from League of Legends. The writers keep saying it's a pragmatic nation that values strength more than race, yet repeatedly they do evil things including hating non-humans. Those who aren't jerks are the minority. So you have to question whether or not they're retconing things or are just bad writers.
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Old 09-27-2014, 04:24 AM
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This, so much.
Yes, it was a mistake to put him in charge, but Thrall was aware of Garrosh's flaws. That's why he gave him seasoned and reasonable advisors.
Plus, he was kinda out of options. Saurfang and Cairne were considered too old and the only real worthy successor would have been Dranosh Saurfang had he not been killed at the Wrathgate.
Garrosh made the choice to disregard all reason and council. That's not on Thrall.
...well, to be fair to Garrosh (even if it's still his fault he did the shit he did, since there was literally nobody holding a gun to his head), of his three advisers, one challenged him to a duel to the death over something he didn't do (Cairne), and he had absolutely no respect for the other (Vol'jin), even before he made a threat to kill him, because of the frustrations caused by Zalazane. Eitrigg was the only one who hadn't managed to piss Garrosh off (or die), and by that point, I couldn't blame Garrosh for not wanting to listen to him considering the other two.
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:46 AM
Mechahunter Mechahunter is offline

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Oh yeah, the awesome advisors that Thrall left with Garrosh.

Vol'jin told Garrosh he would kill him the second he became warchief, because he's a jelly smelly troll who can't even get his stupid isle back in 4 or whatever it was years. Can't wait to see how he's gonna rule.

Baine was ok i guess. Cairne tho was another jelly dumblord who couldn't wait even A SECOND and as soon as Thrall left he challenges Garrosh to DEATH. WTF!

Sylvanas is fkin whatever. How even did Thrall get the forsaken to join the Horde is behind me.

Gallywix is still the leader of the goblins even after he tried to kill and enslave most of them, but good old Thrall is a genius when it comes to Chief appointments.

Blood elves, who are they?

Saurfang was left in Northrend for god knows what reason.

Eitrigg was just staring at Garrosh the whole day like a mongoloid.

Meanwhile Dicklord Malkorok gets to rub all over the Warchief with his GENIUSNESS. Good!

Good job Thrall! Those Advisors sure are helping!
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:50 AM
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Garrosh was a grown fucking adult. Thrall may have pushed him into the position but he had decent reasons for it, left him with helpers, and if I recall correctly, didn't force him to accept, only insisted. Garrosh accepted, he disregarded his helpers and he made his own choices. Thrall isn't completely blameless but I feel that this whole blaming everything on Thrall is ridiculous.
Please elaborate the "good reasoning" you talk about, because I can't see it.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:28 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Please elaborate the "good reasoning" you talk about, because I can't see it.
World ending, needed to help save it, literally cannot be both Warchief and World Shaman at the same time, orcs are Horde majority and wouldn't accept anything but an orc at the time, Eitrigg is a human-loving scumbag, Dranosh is dead, Varok is old and war-weary, Cairne and Vol'jin aren't orcs, Garrosh is a war hero and son of a famous name.

A note on my third point: what changed between then and now is that we probably killed most of the orcs who wouldn't accept a non-orc Warchief in SoO.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:35 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Also watching Garrosh hold down Thrall and beat him is therapeutic.
Yup. Thrall should have been spitting out blood and teeth by then though. Shame on Blizzard.


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Yes, it was a mistake to put him in charge, but Thrall was aware of Garrosh's flaws. That's why he gave him seasoned and reasonable advisors.
Plus, he was kinda out of options. Saurfang and Cairne were considered too old and the only real worthy successor would have been Dranosh Saurfang had he not been killed at the Wrathgate.
Garrosh made the choice to disregard all reason and council. That's not on Thrall.
Or he could have chosen someone NOT a fucking orc to be Warchief. That's a big part of Thrall's mistake and something he is fully to blame for. He didn't even consider a non-orc for the position of Warchief.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:44 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Or he could have chosen someone NOT a fucking orc to be Warchief. That's a big part of Thrall's mistake and something he is fully to blame for. He didn't even consider a non-orc for the position of Warchief.
Didn't he consider Cairne but convince himself against it?
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