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  #76  
Old 11-18-2018, 02:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
While absolutely true for Warcraft I (and I'd say Warcraft II for Gul'dan), I am not so sure about Warcraft III, specifically because of the Kaldorei and Medivh. This has long been my primary problem with Warcraft III's setting, and ultimately, with the Kaldorei. Even though I love the race both conceptually and aesthetically, the way they were rooted into the world and its history, coupled the way they unnecessarily deprived the Quel'thalas elves' of many the themes they had was not particularly prudent.
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  #77  
Old 11-18-2018, 04:16 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I think they just wanted dark elves in Warcraft and to also do the "faded civilization" done for earlier elves with them.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-2018, 04:50 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
While absolutely true for Warcraft I (and I'd say Warcraft II for Gul'dan), I am not so sure about Warcraft III, specifically because of the Kaldorei and Medivh. This has long been my primary problem with Warcraft III's setting, and ultimately, with the Kaldorei. Even though I love the race both conceptually and aesthetically, the way they were rooted into the world and its history, coupled the way they unnecessarily deprived the Quel'thalas elves' of many the themes they had was not particularly prudent.
For WCIII, I meant the roles that were played by the Horde (in killing Mannoroth and helping defeat Archimonde) and the Scourge (in assassinating Mal'Ganis and Tichondrius), both of which were engineered by the Legion to be their puppets.
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  #79  
Old 11-18-2018, 06:09 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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One could call the Night Elves mortals considering their backstory of creatures empowered by one big arcane well.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 11-18-2018 at 06:16 PM..
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  #80  
Old 11-19-2018, 04:25 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
Isn't that just a cheap borrowing from Greek legend storytelling structures?

Mortal heroes and demigods overthrowing deities
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  #81  
Old 11-19-2018, 05:13 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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These are already specific designs you use in your "reimagination". You can't use these to argue that "the world needs guardians, otherwise it does not make sense" based off of historical observation, as the demons, the Kaldorei, and so on do not have to be written the way you describe. And that was the gist of my objection, in a world following Warcraft II thematically as much as factually, they shouldn't be written this way, as a Warcraft II based setting should primarily be about clashes of nations, their socities, philosophies, not about powerful mystical figures dictating the course of the universe, that is Warcraft III and even more so, World of Warcraft.
You have a good point here. It is all arbitrary fictional rules anyway.

I do agree with the part about clashes of nations and beliefs. I disagree that having guardians involved necessarily invalidates that. Medivh is the callous manipulator, and my idea for the Lich King is to be a glorified civil servant.

But at this point I would be content with anything that tells an engaging story. So I look forward to seeing your rendition when it is finished.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
There is an inherent lesson from WC1 and WC3, and it is this: nigh-almighty beings should NOT attempt to meddle in the affairs of mortals. Because mortals are dangerous. You will lose control of them, and they will kill you. It's like a dumb little kid throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Medivh in WC1. If the humans hadn't stormed his tower, the orcs would have.

The Legion in WC3. They engineered two of the factions that helped kill them.

Don't. Play. With. Mortals!
Even with the guardians of the pillars idea I am brainstorming, this is a point I agree with.

The guardians probably had their non-intervention rule for many reasons, such as because messing with mortals results in huge problems. Mortals were responsible for destroying planets, for invading worlds, for starting wars, etc.

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I think they just wanted dark elves in Warcraft and to also do the "faded civilization" done for earlier elves with them.
I am so annoyed with the fading elves cliche. Tolkien did it as part of his romantic belief in a steadily declining world, but it makes no sense in other settings where this isn't the case. Especially not settings where the past was worse or more chaotic than the present, unless the elves are supposed to be amoral fairies.

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One could call the Night Elves mortals considering their backstory of creatures empowered by one big arcane well.
Yep. Something I pointed out makes them into, for lack of a better term, proto-demons.

The Lich King isn't strictly mortal either. He's undead.

Speaking of which, Tolkien's elves were immortal. I'm not just talking "live forever unless slain by sword or disease," I mean their spirits were eternal and could be resurrected. No other race besides the gods and angels could do the same.

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Isn't that just a cheap borrowing from Greek legend storytelling structures?

Mortal heroes and demigods overthrowing deities
It varies. In Greek myth, the various kings of gods were overthrown by their own offspring. Uranus was overthrown by Cronus was overthrown by Zeus was overthrown by... Christianity?

Greek myth was interrupted because the people were converted to Christianity or something before they could tell stories about Zeus being overthrown. I have seen one author's interpretation of a continuation: Zeus is murdered by Hera for all his adultery, then she is executed by Athena, then Hercules is crowned the new king of the gods (for quick reference, his mortal half was previously killed to allow his apotheosis).
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  #82  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Whoops! Quick correction on my part. When I said Medivh planned to puppet the Horde to take control of Azeroth, I forgot this was the WCII retcon. In WCI lore, of course, it was still purely accidental.

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During the battle with his father, he inadvertently opened a gateway to the domain that they, and many other foul creatures, call home. The Orcs are disciples of chaos, however, and not even Medivh has the power to control them.
Same theme though. The orcs are very independent, very uncontrollable. An uncontainable horde, if you will.
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  #83  
Old 11-20-2018, 11:34 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Whoops! Quick correction on my part. When I said Medivh planned to puppet the Horde to take control of Azeroth, I forgot this was the WCII retcon. In WCI lore, of course, it was still purely accidental.



Same theme though. The orcs are very independent, very uncontrollable. An uncontainable horde, if you will.
A good catch. It's unfortunate that WC2 had to engage in retconning when it wasn't necessary. Does anyone have a list of the retcons between WC1 and WC2?

This could be reconciled by claiming that Medivh later chose to manipulate the Horde even if the initial rift was accidental. Aegwynn is the one who claims the orcs cannot be controlled, but Medivh is probably arrogant enough to believe he can.

While I am leery of making Medivh into just another pawn in a series of a pawns of pawns, I do think that the link to Draenor specifically could be explained by the planet being known to the guardians in some way such as instinctively connecting to a familiar name or whatever. For example, the guardians might have learned of Kil'jaeden or the eredar from Sargeras or his company, and Medivh's uncontrolled release of power instinctively sought out the eredar and connected to Draenor where they had settled.

Or we could just rewrite WC2 to better fit with WC1. For example:
  • the rift was accidental but Medivh later capitalized on it. It was never opened deliberately.
  • Kil'jaeden was never a student of Sargeras specifically, but he had heard of the species and told Gul'dan during his classes on the many demonic races he knew of.
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  #84  
Old 11-20-2018, 01:47 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Apart from the retcons created by merging the two campaign into a single narrative and making the player characters into lore characters (Doomhammer for the orc player character, Lothar for the human one), there are only two principal retcons, and both can be handwaved away pretty easily.

1) Gul'dan creating the necrolytes in Warcraft II. This one can be either handwaved as Gul'dan being an ego-maniac who revised history for his writings, or the ancient orcish religions being still death oriented (communing with the dead and channeling the cold energies of the underworld), yet not advanced enough as to raise dead until Gul'dan, or a combination of both.

2) The Medivh problem, which can be handwaved with the very original rift being accidental, Medivh only capitalizing on it, and Aegwyn correctly concluding that the orcs would prove too hard to control even for him.
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  #85  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:46 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Apart from the retcons created by merging the two campaign into a single narrative and making the player characters into lore characters (Doomhammer for the orc player character, Lothar for the human one)
I'll add that with this, specifically, the biggest change is the nature of how the Commander/Doomhammer became warchief. He originally outmaneuvers Blackhand and gains support from the Shadow Council. It's the Shadow Council that has Blackhand killed.

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The time has come for you to seize control of the Orcish hordes for yourself. Blackhand has become foolish in the deployment of his personal troops, and has left an opening that you can now exploit. A key outpost in the Black Morass is the core of Blackhand's supply lines - not only to his foremost battle groups, but to his castle at Black Rock Spire, as well. The complete destruction of this outpost will disrupt his power base long enough for you to secure his overthrow.
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The destruction of Blackhand's outpost has left him in a weak position. The Shadow Council, sensing your rise in power, orders the assassination of Blackhand and elevates you to the position of War Chief.
I'm not sure if the Shadow Council was connected to warlocks yet? All the manual says is that Garona was a member.

EDIT: Open for debate, but I think the WC1 orc ending treats the Shadow Council and the Warlocks as distinct factions. The Shadow Council is looking for new lands across the sea, while the Warlocks want to tinker with the Portal.

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What new conquests will await you in this place? The Shadow Council has begun to bring you information concerning the lands across the great sea that are as yet untouched by Orcish rule. The Warlocks also seek your permission to resume their experiments with the portal, their intent being the subjugation of other worlds.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-20-2018 at 05:56 PM..
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  #86  
Old 11-21-2018, 01:18 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Anyway, I think you can keep the Legion for this Unretconed Warcraft. You just need to stick to the RoC ingame non-backstory depiction of the BL with its dependence on proxy armies and what demons who do show up shown as elite forces who terrorize a squadron.
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  #87  
Old 11-21-2018, 02:21 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

EDIT: Open for debate, but I think the WC1 orc ending treats the Shadow Council and the Warlocks as distinct factions. The Shadow Council is looking for new lands across the sea, while the Warlocks want to tinker with the Portal.
Actually, even Warcraft II treats them as separate thanks to this sentence;

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With the combined powers of the Horde's Warlock clans and the Shadow Council, we were able to enlarge the mysterious rift so as to create a Portal.
If their might needs be combined, it means they exist as separate entities each with their own might. Ultimately, that is only natural, according to the manual, the warlocks predate Gul'dan by generations, whereas the Shadow Council was still his personal creation.

Last edited by Marthen; 11-21-2018 at 03:07 PM..
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  #88  
Old 11-21-2018, 02:27 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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There should be plenty of Warlocks who don't serve Gul'dan and serve Doomhamer.
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  #89  
Old 11-21-2018, 02:36 PM
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Wasn't the Shadow Council made up only of a certain number of powerful warlocks loyal to Gul'dan, similar to how the Kirin Tor has the Council of 6? Before WoW I mean. I think that was what Lord of the Clans implied and I don't remember anything from the Warcraft 3 manual to say otherwise. I didn't think much about it at the time but it seems to imply that most warlocks, or at least a lot of them, were scattered across the clans with them answering to their chieftains, at least in theory, or to some other central leader/s.
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #90  
Old 11-21-2018, 06:26 PM
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The only plot points that really bug me in the Reign of Chaos - The Last Guardian - The Frozen Throne storyline are:

1) Founding of Durotar. I just think it's so substandard, even compared to what is obstensibly pulp storytelling in Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne otherwise. Daelin's a loudmouth punk, Jaina's a punk, Thrall is useless. Everyone's stupid and unlikable. Which is COMPLETELY at odds with the rest of Frozen Throne where everyone has a ton more personality and is way more engaging and sympathetic. (Particularly the Night Elf characters and Arthas)

It also resulted in a lot of nonsense and this dour unpleasant nonstop faction conflict. There were way more interesting ways to get the Horde and Alliance at eachother's throats than what they've done. And it really all goes back to the characterisation and themes of Founding of Durotar.

2) The change in the timeline in regards to the opening of the dark portal to the first war. I just think it's pointless. I don't even understand why it was done.

I don't really have a problem with much else. Reign of Chaos makes it clear that the Orc's redemption is predicated on the fact that they were responsible for their own fate. I think the Legion is intimidating and powerful in WC3 and the interfactional conflict between them the Horde & the Scourge presents all three as mostly three-dimensional. The Scourge's objectives aren't even really clear in WC3 outside of the individual characters. (i.e. Kel'thuzad is a sincere religious zealot, Arthas is hungry for glory, etc. etc.) All the individual antagonists also have such different approaches and engaging personalities I can't really find fault in how that was handled either.
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  #91  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:55 AM
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Know what I'd like? I'd like to see a FT-era Quel'thalas that has fully turned to fel magic after their kingdom was destroyed, while simultaneously rejoining the Alliance with Lordaeron, who also lost their kingdom. This reality existed in the FT Alliance tech tree but never in the campaigns or lore.
Pass.

Night Elves were prelude to one of the biggest snowballs in Warcraft's focus on mortals: immortal "mortals." 10K is a LONG amount of time, and having mortals alive that long was absolutely ridiculous.* If the night elves had been passed the Vigil of their forefathers, that would have been one thing; however, they lived forever-lasting lives in a 10K+ stagnant civilization. And this gave way for the 25K+ eredar and draenei. I don't think that Blizzard conceptually grasps how long of a time this is, particularly when placed against the backdrop of human history. I remember even being a kid reading the WC2 manual flummoxed by how the king of the high elves was alive 2K years prior for the Troll Wars. 2K?

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
I am so annoyed with the fading elves cliche. Tolkien did it as part of his romantic belief in a steadily declining world, but it makes no sense in other settings where this isn't the case. Especially not settings where the past was worse or more chaotic than the present, unless the elves are supposed to be amoral fairies.
Though I largely disagree, I would say that Tolkien was less motivated by a "romantic belief in a steadily declining world," but, rather, in the end of the fantastic pre-Christian pagan world.

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Speaking of which, Tolkien's elves were immortal. I'm not just talking "live forever unless slain by sword or disease," I mean their spirits were eternal and could be resurrected. No other race besides the gods and angels could do the same.
*The immortality and reincarnation of the elves in Arda makes sense in the context of the themes, narrative, and worldbuilding of Middle Earth. This is not and has not really been the case for night elves.
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  #92  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:32 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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What should be done with fhe Night Elves and other "eternal mortals" like the Draenei then?
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  #93  
Old 11-24-2018, 11:27 AM
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What should be done with fhe Night Elves and other "eternal mortals" like the Draenei then?
Give them a more reasonable lifespan. But also screw the reinvented Draenei.
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  #94  
Old 11-24-2018, 01:26 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Pass.

Night Elves were prelude to one of the biggest snowballs in Warcraft's focus on mortals: immortal "mortals." 10K is a LONG amount of time, and having mortals alive that long was absolutely ridiculous.* If the night elves had been passed the Vigil of their forefathers, that would have been one thing; however, they lived forever-lasting lives in a 10K+ stagnant civilization. And this gave way for the 25K+ eredar and draenei. I don't think that Blizzard conceptually grasps how long of a time this is, particularly when placed against the backdrop of human history. I remember even being a kid reading the WC2 manual flummoxed by how the king of the high elves was alive 2K years prior for the Troll Wars. 2K?
I wasn't talking about elven immortality but about the human-elven-dwarven Alliance being thematically connected as the survivors of fallen or ravaged kingdoms. They'd cling to traditionalism while simultaneously experimenting with controversial forces - as we see when holy paladins, arcane archmages, and fel blood mages all fight side-by-side.

(I never actually got the vibe of elven immortality from WC2. We got some of that from Aegwyn, who'd lived over a thousand years, but I don't think Anasterian was part of the lore until WC3.

The "Troll Wars" alluded to in WC2 and DotD also came off as a very recent event. Alleria wasn't marked as a veteran of those wars until the Warcraft Encyclopedia, and even then I don't think it had become an ancient event until later in lore development. In fact... did we ever find out if Alleria is still treated as a Troll War veteran, now that the war got shifted back in time?)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-24-2018 at 01:35 PM..
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  #95  
Old 11-24-2018, 01:40 PM
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I wasn't talking about elven immortality
I know. That was a separate tangent from the thread. It got clumped up with your thing because I ended up adding other quotes below that, so it unintentionally clumping that side tangent with yours.
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  #96  
Old 11-25-2018, 11:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Pass.

Night Elves were prelude to one of the biggest snowballs in Warcraft's focus on mortals: immortal "mortals." 10K is a LONG amount of time, and having mortals alive that long was absolutely ridiculous.* If the night elves had been passed the Vigil of their forefathers, that would have been one thing; however, they lived forever-lasting lives in a 10K+ stagnant civilization. And this gave way for the 25K+ eredar and draenei. I don't think that Blizzard conceptually grasps how long of a time this is, particularly when placed against the backdrop of human history. I remember even being a kid reading the WC2 manual flummoxed by how the king of the high elves was alive 2K years prior for the Troll Wars. 2K?
Absolutely agreed. This is one of the reasons why my rework does not have the elves immortal, nor are their polities direct continuations of the ancient empire, the eredar and the draenei are completely separate, the War of the Ancients happened "only" three thousand years before the First War, and so on.
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  #97  
Old 11-25-2018, 01:10 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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What about the Old Gods/Void? What do you all say about them?
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  #98  
Old 11-25-2018, 05:55 PM
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What about the Old Gods/Void? What do you all say about them?
I like.
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  #99  
Old 11-25-2018, 06:08 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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I will say the Void Faction really comes off as a discount Burning Legion for how they represent different elements.
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  #100  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:13 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Though I largely disagree, I would say that Tolkien was less motivated by a "romantic belief in a steadily declining world," but, rather, in the end of the fantastic pre-Christian pagan world.

*The immortality and reincarnation of the elves in Arda makes sense in the context of the themes, narrative, and worldbuilding of Middle Earth. This is not and has not really been the case for night elves.
I don't understand. What do you disagree with?

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I will say the Void Faction really comes off as a discount Burning Legion for how they represent different elements.
I don't think the extra apocalypse factions are really necessary given that WC2 already claimed that there were innumerable demonic races with their own histories and motivations. The Void was only introduced because the demons were retconned as all being affiliated with the Legion, and to further complicate the already convoluted lore and render the morality even more unrecognizable.

Right now the Void serves the exact same role that the Legion did in WC3, or the demons in WC1/2. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard tries to make the Void sympathetic or something, like they did for Sargeras.
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