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  #1376  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:43 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
You realize that is due purely to game mechanics, right? In the lore, you can't get stomped on by a gronn and survive without some sort of magical/mechanical/alchemical aid. Personally, I don't take WoW serious enough to truly care about the presence of female warriors or whatever. It doesn't bother me and it never did. Like most things in WoW, it can be chalked up to game mechanics. I stopped respecting the integrity of the story/lore somewhere around late Cataclysm, though. Things just got too shitty.

Warcraft 3 pretty much set up the "laws" of Warcraft, in my opinion. Elves were really the only races to field female warriors. Even then, they specialized in ranged combat. A human footman had less HP than an orc grunt. A human knight was superior to an orc raider. If I could've designed WoW, I would've stayed within the "laws" laid down by WC3. I can understand why that's not the smartest business decision, however.

Regardless, that argument of yours is extremely weak. Game mechanics should never be equated with lore. Your argument would actually carry weight if we saw people tanking massive beasts in the books and whatnot. But we don't. It took several worgen to take down a single magnataur. Durotan almost got killed by a talbuk. People are much more vulnerable in the lore. Much more subject to the laws of physics. The game, by necessity, has to make concessions to things like this in order to be an enjoyable experience.

I do prefer a touch of realism in my fantasy. I'm sure PJ finds that absolutely shocking. Just a touch is all I require, though. Just the most basic of things. If some race or culture or society has women that go to war with them, I'd like to know why. It's not the norm in our world and never was. Naturally, I'd like an explanation. How am I going to ever take the story seriously when the only reason there are "kickass shieldmaidens" fighting alongside men like it's normal in this fictional world is to appease a demographic in our world?

I love worldbuilding. Anything that fleshes out the world, the peoples, the cultures, history, etc. is good to me. There should be a reason for the way things are. There are reasons for the way things are and were in our world. If I'm going to truly immerse myself in this story, it should have reasons for these things as well. I don't think I'm being outrageous here.
I just think it's an arbitrary line to draw.

We've got dragons, inconsistent magical rules, and impractical physics as is.

Ignoring for a moment that while it may not have been common Irl that women have, and are perfectly capable of fighting in wars.

It's a goddamn fantasy universe.

Out of all the worldbuilding if women in battle is the thing you single out to scrutinize as immersion breaking I think that says more about you than the setting.
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  #1377  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:52 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You can want realism in your games if you want. I just always thought WoW was a more goofy cartoony game. I think most people understand that females are typically weaker than males in the upper body strength department. Women do fight in wars though. The game can always explain it with magic and many of the races aren't even human. It is the Earth human species where women are smaller. Even the Azerothian ones have different origins.
When women are half the size of men yet they are the same strength that's just silly to me.

I don't have a problem with women fighting, but I think it's just a bit ridiculous and to say that the woman who is both visibly smaller and thinner than a burly man is just as strong as him.

Again, women can be just as capable as men, just as skilled as men, can be warriors, and all that. But saying something to be true, when it's just so visibly jarring is immersion breaking.

Part of this is because as a larger person(6'2, 200) saying that someone who's much smaller than me(Not just height wise, but in muscle build too) is going to be just as strong as me is a little offensive.

I know y'all want everything to feel empowering, but what if it ends up making other people feel "depowered?"

I'm trying to be reasonable but I kind of doubt that this conversation is going to go well so iunno. :l
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  #1378  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:54 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
When women are half the size of men yet they are the same strength that's just silly to me.

I don't have a problem with women fighting, but I think it's just a bit ridiculous and to say that the woman who is both visibly smaller and thinner than a burly man is just as strong as him.

Again, women can be just as capable as men, just as skilled as men, can be warriors, and all that. But saying something to be true, when it's just so visibly jarring is immersion breaking.

Part of this is because as a larger person(6'2, 200) saying that someone who's much smaller than me(Not just height wise, but in muscle build too) is going to be just as strong as me is a little offensive.

I know y'all want everything to feel empowering, but what if it ends up making other people feel "depowered?"
You fight dwarves gnolls, troggs, gnomes, goblins, murlocs and all sorts of junk that's half your size and still strong.

Drawing the line at women is dumb.

EDIT:

If you feel depowered because of women doing the same thing as you that's fucking stupid.
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  #1379  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:58 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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You guys can argue about the video game chicks. I'll take my physical superiority to women in reality any day. What them kung fu movies don't teach you, is that in the every day lives of people, 95% of the time strength is gonna win. That's why women should own guns, great equalizers.
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  #1380  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:00 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You fight dwarves gnolls, troggs, gnomes, goblins, murlocs and all sorts of junk that's half your size and still strong.

Drawing the line at women is dumb.

EDIT:

If you feel depowered because of women doing the same thing as you that's fucking stupid.
I feel like you just ignored what I was saying.

I'm talking about physical strength.
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  #1381  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I feel like you just ignored what I was saying.

I'm talking about physical strength.
It's a goddang fantasy setting.
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  #1382  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:03 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
When women are half the size of men yet they are the same strength that's just silly to me.

I don't have a problem with women fighting, but I think it's just a bit ridiculous and to say that the woman who is both visibly smaller and thinner than a burly man is just as strong as him.

Again, women can be just as capable as men, just as skilled as men, can be warriors, and all that. But saying something to be true, when it's just so visibly jarring is immersion breaking.

Part of this is because as a larger person(6'2, 200) saying that someone who's much smaller than me(Not just height wise, but in muscle build too) is going to be just as strong as me is a little offensive.

I know y'all want everything to feel empowering, but what if it ends up making other people feel "depowered?"

I'm trying to be reasonable but I kind of doubt that this conversation is going to go well so iunno. :l
I am sorry if it offends you. If it is any comfort you can probably beat me up in a fist fight and I can't carry as much weight as you. You probably can't do the splits/cartwheel or soothe someone with words as well as I can though. It is just a video game though, does that part of reality have to be put into the game?
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  #1383  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:03 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Fantasy setting permits anything right?

Time to quit my job, give birth and eat bonbons.
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  #1384  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:05 PM
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The muscles of females and smaller races are simply far more compact that those of the bigger creatures in Warcraft, leading to night elves being weaker than Gnomes and females being the equals of men.
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  #1385  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:18 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
Fantasy setting permits anything right?

Time to quit my job, give birth and eat bonbons.
I bet a bear could beat you in a fight.
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  #1386  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:20 PM
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To clarify, is your issue that when women are in games they look like runway models rather than athletes and are still just as strong, or that women are s strong as guys in some fantasy games period?
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  #1387  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:21 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It's a goddang fantasy setting.
Shit then why the fuck does it matter that woman are as fucking strong as men?

Why stop at woman? Why can't babies be as strong, as athletic, as intelligent, and as capable as adults? How about all races are exactly the same strength. Gnomes and Dragons have the same physical capabilities.

Why? Because physical limits and benefits are a part of the thing.

You say that it's just a fantasy, but some pipsqueak 100 pound person being as physically strong as the 250 pound walking tank is not appealing at all.

For similar reasons why a Human is stronger than a Gnome, a man who is visibly larger and more fit than a woman should be stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I am sorry if it offends you. If it is any comfort you can probably beat me up in a fist fight and I can't carry as much weight as you. You probably can't do the splits/cartwheel or soothe someone with words as well as I can though. It is just a video game though, does that part of reality have to be put into the game?
I don't think it should be reflected in the game. Someone who wants a female protection warrior shouldn't be at a disadvantage to someone who wanted a male one.

But, making it official canon is really silly to me. I think it does more harm than good.

AGAIN. I think women should 100% be shown to be just as capable as men, and vice versa. Just it ought to not be done in a stupid way.

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To clarify, is your issue that when women are in games they look like runway models rather than athletes and are still just as strong, or that women are s strong as guys in some fantasy games period?
It's some of both, but if women were are large as men(which I think would have other problems, but I don't care to discuss that right now) I wouldn't complain about their strength compared to men because then it would make sense.
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  #1388  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:21 PM
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Can I rescue damsels from the forest without being labeled as sexist?
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  #1389  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:26 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
But, making it official canon is really silly to me. I think it does more harm than good.

AGAIN. I think women should 100% be shown to be just as capable as men, and vice versa. Just it ought to not be done in a stupid way.
How do you feel about female superheroes that can fight people?

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Can I rescue damsels from the forest without being labeled as sexist?
Why not?
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  #1390  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:27 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Shit then why the fuck does it matter that woman are as fucking strong as men?

Why stop at woman? Why can't babies be as strong, as athletic, as intelligent, and as capable as adults? How about all races are exactly the same strength. Gnomes and Dragons have the same physical capabilities.

Why? Because physical limits and benefits are a part of the thing.

You say that it's just a fantasy, but some pipsqueak 100 pound person being as physically strong as the 250 pound walking tank is not appealing at all.

For similar reasons why a Human is stronger than a Gnome, a man who is visibly larger and more fit than a woman should be stronger.

I don't think it should be reflected in the game. Someone who wants a female protection warrior shouldn't be at a disadvantage to someone who wanted a male one.

But, making it official canon is really silly to me. I think it does more harm than good.

AGAIN. I think women should 100% be shown to be just as capable as men, and vice versa. Just it ought to not be done in a stupid way.
Because in the game women can't make their toon look like a bodybuilder

They are -handed- a model.

Lorewise of course a person who looks like a wispy thin runway model isn't going to be a prot warrior. Whether they're male or female is irrelevant to that though.



When you say "more harm then good" can you elaborate on what you mean?
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  #1391  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:30 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
How do you feel about female superheroes that can fight people?
I think they are awesome! I don't have any problem with them because the reasons for their abilities make sense. They aren't bound by normal human rules and restrictions because they are superior to mere humans.
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  #1392  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:32 PM
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But WoW humans aren't normal humans either!
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  #1393  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:41 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I think they are awesome! I don't have any problem with them because the reasons for their abilities make sense. They aren't bound by normal human rules and restrictions because they are superior to mere humans.
Do you think a women being more powerful than you is emasculating?
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  #1394  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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  #1395  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Shit then why the fuck does it matter that woman are as fucking strong as men?

Why stop at woman? Why can't babies be as strong, as athletic, as intelligent, and as capable as adults? How about all races are exactly the same strength. Gnomes and Dragons have the same physical capabilities.

Why? Because physical limits and benefits are a part of the thing.

You say that it's just a fantasy, but some pipsqueak 100 pound person being as physically strong as the 250 pound walking tank is not appealing at all.

For similar reasons why a Human is stronger than a Gnome, a man who is visibly larger and more fit than a woman should be stronger.

I don't think it should be reflected in the game. Someone who wants a female protection warrior shouldn't be at a disadvantage to someone who wanted a male one.

But, making it official canon is really silly to me. I think it does more harm than good.
To expand on this.

It matters because women play the damn game and babies don't.


If you're literally going to throw a tantrum about how lorewise it is SUCH A TRAVESTY that women cannot be as strong as men even in a fantasy universe for escapism then I don't know what to say to you.

Particularly if you're going to use the shitty models they're stuck with by the devs to support your argument.



Frankly, if I were a woman playing a game I wouldn't really give a shit about the real world, I'd want to play my damn character and enjoy the story without the nagging notion that if I ever RP I have to come up with -yet more justifications beyond the fact that this is a goddamn fantasy universe-, to explain why my character can do the same damn thing anyone else can, is stupid.

Now if someone WANTS to have a character that focuses on skill or balance rather than being just as strong as everyone else that's fine, it's their character.

That's part of the damn point, this is supposed to be fun.


For everyone.
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  #1396  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Do you think a women being more powerful than you is emasculating?
Not when it makes sense. The idea that smaller women are just as physically strong as larger males is emasculating though.

And I just copied and pasted over what I typed out to Smoke and Mutters.

ugg... I'll go back to this later.

You know mutters, I can understand that it maybe it isn't very fun thing for women. However, I stand by my assertion that is is emasculating, "de-empowering," anti immersion, and not very good escapism to balance out everything. For the woman making things 100% even might be awesome for them, but it proportionately makes men feel weaker. It is a give and take.

You say it's supposed to be fun for everyone, but maybe making men proportionately weaker isn't fun.

A lot of the language you are using is fairly hostile so I'm not very keen on discussing this with you, because you aren't willing to acknowledge the problems that people have with what you want.
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  #1397  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:53 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Often times in anime, martial arts, etc., the smaller, thinner man is able to overpower much larger men. Is that not emasculating too?
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  #1398  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:02 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I bet a bear could beat you in a fight.
Maybe if he brought friends.
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  #1399  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:03 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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My bigger issue with this.


Skinny men? Not framed as a problem.

Gnomes? Not framed as a problem.

Goblins? Not framed as a problem.

Burly women? Not brought up really.


Skinny/thin women being as strong as men lorewise being an issue? Okay I can -get that-, but frankly I still think if anyone wants to make a character that way it's their right.


I apologize for my tone with you though Erthad, that was out of line.
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Not when it makes sense. The idea that smaller women are just as physically strong as larger males is emasculating though.

And I just copied and pasted over what I typed out to Smoke and Mutters.

ugg... I'll go back to this later.

You know mutters, I can understand that it maybe it isn't very fun thing for women. However, I stand by my assertion that is is emasculating, "de-empowering," anti immersion, and not very good escapism to balance out everything. For the woman making things 100% even might be awesome for them, but it proportionately makes men feel weaker. It is a give and take.

You say it's supposed to be fun for everyone, but maybe making men proportionately weaker isn't fun.

A lot of the language you are using is fairly hostile so I'm not very keen on discussing this with you, because you aren't willing to acknowledge the problems that people have with what you want.
I am sorry you think I am being hostile. I am not trying to be.
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