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  #1401  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:13 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
My bigger issue with this.


Skinny men? Not framed as a problem.

Gnomes? Not framed as a problem.

Goblins? Not framed as a problem.

Burly women? Not brought up really.


Skinny/thin women being as strong as men lorewise being an issue? Okay I can -get that-, but frankly I still think if anyone wants to make a character that way it's their right.


I apologize for my tone with you though Erthad, that was out of line.
Gnomes, Goblins and skinny men aren't portrayed as physically strong, though.
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  #1402  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:18 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I am sorry you think I am being hostile. I am not trying to be.
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  #1403  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:28 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Gnomes, Goblins and skinny men aren't portrayed as physically strong, though.
Since Erthad has requested we stop discussion I'll pick this up with you in a PM

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post

You know mutters, I can understand that it maybe it isn't very fun thing for women. However, I stand by my assertion that is is emasculating, "de-empowering," anti immersion, and not very good escapism to balance out everything. For the woman making things 100% even might be awesome for them, but it proportionately makes men feel weaker. It is a give and take.

You say it's supposed to be fun for everyone, but maybe making men proportionately weaker isn't fun.

A lot of the language you are using is fairly hostile so I'm not very keen on discussing this with you, because you aren't willing to acknowledge the problems that people have with what you want.
Again, my apologies, I let my temper get the better of me.


I think the issue here is framed improperly though.


Largely because Blizz has a nasty tendency to make lore reflect the game a bit too closely, and there's disagreement on how Hard/Soft the universe should be.
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  #1404  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:46 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Do you think it's stupid to turn a badass female villain into some innocent victim? That's why I dislike the first GIJOE movie's Baroness so much.
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  #1405  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:48 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Do you think it's stupid to turn a badass female villain into some innocent victim? That's why I dislike the first GIJOE movie's Baroness so much.
I don't know anything about GI Joe so I can't really comment on how that was handled, but I do think media sometimes has "pretty" characters redeemed poorly.

EDIT: Changed wording for clarity.
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  #1406  
Old 07-11-2014, 05:50 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Baroness is the most badass female villain I've seen in my childhood.

They handled Scarlett quite well though, Rachel was the perfect cast.
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  #1407  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:04 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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... so instead of "pandering" to women, you'd prefer the industry to, this time no quotation marks, pander to insecure manchildren?
Dude there's no need to pursue this further, there's no need to be just as graceless as I was by continuing it.
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  #1408  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:09 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Being picked up is the most helpless feeling ever.
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  #1409  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:10 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Lowtide View Post
... so instead of "pandering" to women, you'd prefer the industry to, this time no quotation marks, pander to insecure manchildren?
I kind of feel like responding to this, but I probably shouldn't because you'll just misinterpret everything I write like you did just now.
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  #1410  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:13 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Out of all the worldbuilding if women in battle is the thing you single out to scrutinize as immersion breaking I think that says more about you than the setting.
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's just one thing of many. If there are female knights existing "just because," I find it dumb. Even LotC mentioned that women in the military was not the norm. (That one chick had to disguise herself as a man just to join.) I like to know the reasons behind things. If it's just to fill some quota to appease real world people, I think it's shallow and dumb.

It's not the ONLY thing that's world-breaking to me. It's an example relevant to the topic at hand.

EDIT: To elaborate further, I don't care about game mechanics. I already said that. Female warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. Gnome warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. It's when the story/lore suffers to compliment game mechanics that I start taking issue. When game mechanics influence lore/story, I stop taking the medium seriously and it the world simply becomes a game and not a game with a story or rich universe.

Last edited by Frostwolf; 07-11-2014 at 06:17 PM..
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  #1411  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:20 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's just one thing of many. If there are female knights existing "just because," I find it dumb. Even LotC mentioned that women in the military was not the norm. (That one chick had to disguise herself as a man just to join.) I like to know the reasons behind things. If it's just to fill some quota to appease real world people, I think it's shallow and dumb.

It's not the ONLY thing that's world-breaking to me. It's an example relevant to the topic at hand.

EDIT: To elaborate further, I don't care about game mechanics. I already said that. Female warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. Gnome warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. It's when the story/lore suffers to compliment game mechanics that I start taking issue. When game mechanics influence lore/story, I stop taking the medium seriously and it the world simply becomes a game and not a game with a story or rich universe.
I feel like I couldn't have chosen a better representative for my orc brothers than you.
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  #1412  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:22 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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I feel like I couldn't have chosen a better representative for my orc brothers than you.
Blood and Thunder, my nigga.
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  #1413  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You guys are just a bunch of dude bros.
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  #1414  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:25 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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You guys are just a bunch of dude bros.
Please be nice to me.
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  #1415  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:26 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Friendship fluctuations are pretty interesting.
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  #1416  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:28 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Friendship fluctuations are pretty interesting.
Which friendship fluctuated?
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  #1417  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:30 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Which friendship fluctuated?
Hmm, I think checking your friendlist should tell you.
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  #1418  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:33 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Hmm, I think checking your friendlist should tell you.


I haven't checked that thing in ages. I hope someone didn't... delete me!
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  #1419  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:35 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Blood and Thunder, my nigga.
Claimed.
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  #1420  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:40 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Friendship fluctuations are pretty interesting.
Aren't they?

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I haven't checked that thing in ages. I hope someone didn't... delete me!
The faces of those who once befriended and never got around to checking out are more interesting.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #1421  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:49 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's just one thing of many. If there are female knights existing "just because," I find it dumb. Even LotC mentioned that women in the military was not the norm. (That one chick had to disguise herself as a man just to join.) I like to know the reasons behind things. If it's just to fill some quota to appease real world people, I think it's shallow and dumb.

It's not the ONLY thing that's world-breaking to me. It's an example relevant to the topic at hand.

EDIT: To elaborate further, I don't care about game mechanics. I already said that. Female warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. Gnome warriors is game mechanics and it doesn't bother me. It's when the story/lore suffers to compliment game mechanics that I start taking issue. When game mechanics influence lore/story, I stop taking the medium seriously and it the world simply becomes a game and not a game with a story or rich universe.
I think we're arguing different things then, because aside from our agreement on gameplay, my stance is just that in lore it should be possible* for women to be soldiers and just as competent / capable as men in the same fields.

*Cultural norms are a different issue than physical viability.
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  #1422  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:50 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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It's like, God read my mind. And made it so. And it was good. Vury good.
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  #1423  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:52 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You have good taste.
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  #1424  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:54 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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You have good taste.
My tastes are blonde petite women. The rest is me wanting to tame things that like to think they have independence. The longer they hold out the more attractive they are.
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  #1425  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:55 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I think we're arguing different things then, because aside from our agreement on gameplay, my stance is just that in lore it should be possible* for women to be soldiers and just as competent / capable as men in the same fields.

*Cultural norms are a different issue than physical viability.
I feel like this entire topic has just been people arguing different things.
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