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  #26  
Old 08-01-2013, 03:36 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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If you already had an answer in mind that you'd never deviate from, why'd you ask the question?
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:35 PM
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If you already had an answer in mind that you'd never deviate from, why'd you ask the question?
Youĺve never heard of the famed rhetorical question?
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  #28  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Remember guys. Its wrong and destructive to the story to have a scourge killing club when it includes people who scourge kill.

Which is everyone.

Because the Scourge/Legion was all about killing everyone on WC3.
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:38 PM
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Remember guys. Its wrong and destructive to the story to have a scourge killing club when it includes people who scourge kill.

Which is everyone.
Except it's not everyone though. The people who have dedicated themselves to Scourge-killing are the residents of the Eastern Kingdoms, which makes sense because the Scourge threat has largely been confined to the Eastern Kingdoms.

It makes no sense to have a bunch of Kalimdor races suddenly give a shit about Lordaeron.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:41 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Except it's not everyone though. The people who have dedicated themselves to Scourge-killing are the residents of the Eastern Kingdoms, which makes sense because the Scourge threat has largely been confined to the Eastern Kingdoms.

It makes no sense to have a bunch of Kalimdor races suddenly give a shit about Lordaeron.
Everyone has a beef with the scourge for whatever reason. EVERYONE.

and is it so wrong to actually think that other people are kind of willing to fight for a cause?
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  #31  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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Everyone has a beef with the scourge for whatever reason. EVERYONE.
Only in the most boring, generic, superficial sense. Yes, "everyone" has a beef with the Scourge because they're a threat to the world, but there are multiple entities and organizations that qualify as a "threat to the world" and I wouldn't expect people from Stormwind to be making pilgrimages to Stonetalon or Silithus because they have a beef with the Old Gods.
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:48 PM
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  #34  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:52 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Poor Frostwolves. Someone needs to tell them that they have no investment in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Along with every other orc that was either hiding in the Swamp of Sorrows (Grom Hellscream and his clan) or hiding out in Lordaeron/Arathi/Alterac and causing enough trouble that Arthas kept getting sent out by Terenas to put an end to all of the orcish troubles that kept plaguing Lordaeron pre-Scourging.

Tauren don't have any investment in the Eastern Kingdoms, but orcs certainly have had a lot invested in the Eastern Kingdoms ever since the first and second wars.
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  #35  
Old 08-01-2013, 04:57 PM
Euphemialibritannia Euphemialibritannia is offline

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Also don't forget Tauren are into all that healing the land kind of stuff too, which is kind of why they supported Forsaken joining the horde. So it makes sense for at least a few Tauren(like the one in EPL) to journey into plagued lands to help it heal.
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  #36  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Poor Frostwolves. Someone needs to tell them that they have no investment in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Along with every other orc that was either hiding in the Swamp of Sorrows (Grom Hellscream and his clan) or hiding out in Lordaeron/Arathi/Alterac and causing enough trouble that Arthas kept getting sent out by Terenas to put an end to all of the orcish troubles that kept plaguing Lordaeron pre-Scourging.

Tauren don't have any investment in the Eastern Kingdoms, but orcs certainly have had a lot invested in the Eastern Kingdoms ever since the first and second wars.
All of this was before they knew Kalimdor existed and then moved there. Unless you're talking about the Blackrock (who I don't see lining up to fight the Scourge), they have absolutely zero investment in the Eastern Kingdoms, much less in Lordaeron.
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  #37  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:08 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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All of this was before they knew Kalimdor existed and then moved there. Unless you're talking about the Blackrock (who I don't see lining up to fight the Scourge), they have absolutely zero investment in the Eastern Kingdoms, much less in Lordaeron.
Frostwolves never moved from Alterac Valley.
You still had orcs in Hammerfall and still had orcs in the Swamp of Sorrows.

Not every single orc joined Thrall to Kalimdor. Lots of them stayed behind because they had made the Eastern Kingdoms their home. For better or worse.
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  #38  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Frostwolves never moved from Alterac Valley.
You still had orcs in Hammerfall and still had orcs in the Swamp of Sorrows.

Not every single orc joined Thrall to Kalimdor. Lots of them stayed behind because they had made the Eastern Kingdoms their home. For better or worse.
Besides, it is likely that in the first years/months after Hyjal the Azerothian races were more prone to cooperate with each other, to undo what the Legion and it's minions had done. I doubt that the relationships deteriorated instantly, so tauren and orcs joining a, mainly, human organization to cleanse the lands that were ravaged by the Scourge doesn't strike me as odd. Even less when you consider that they have shamanic (and druidic) cultures, which would be invested in healing the world they live in.
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  #39  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:13 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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And the Scourge never made its presence known in Alterac Valley nor has it ever been relevant for any of the Orcs there.

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You still had orcs in Hammerfall and still had orcs in the Swamp of Sorrows.
The former are occupying human lands and human buildings and the latter are manning a small outpost.

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Not every single orc joined Thrall to Kalimdor. Lots of them stayed behind because they had made the Eastern Kingdoms their home. For better or worse.
But aside from Alterac, none of the examples you just gave depict that. Everything points to them sticking around because they are assholes who want to ensure that the humans have difficulty regaining their lands.

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Besides, it is likely that in the first years/months after Hyjal the Azerothian races were more prone to cooperate with each other, to undo what the Legion and it's minions had done. I doubt that the relationships deteriorated instantly, so tauren and orcs joining a, mainly, human organization to cleanse the lands that were ravaged by the Scourge doesn't strike me as odd. Even less when you consider that they have shamanic (and druidic) cultures, which would be invested in healing the world they live in.
If this were the case then the whole "We argents can't join the Alliance, what about our non-Alliance members?" thing would not have been.
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  #40  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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And the Scourge never made its presence known in Alterac Valley nor has it ever been relevant for any of the Orcs there.
Doesn't mean that the orcs wouldn't want the Scourge to actually make their presence known in Alterac Valley. The Scourge wanted Azeroth. No one was safe.

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The former are occupying human lands and human buildings and the latter are manning a small outpost.
Which the humans abandoned to them and never came back to take. If the humans want those lands back so bad, then why not just take it?

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But aside from Alterac, none of the examples you just gave depict that. Everything points to them sticking around because they are assholes who want to ensure that the humans have difficulty regaining their lands.
Which the humans abandoned to them and never came back to take. If the humans want those lands back so bad, then why not just take it?

Instead, despite Blueheart's family being from SoS, she instead of kicking the orcs out and reclaiming her home, she allows them to stay and jsut steals some supplies.

Again, if the humans want those lands that the orcs claimed for themselves, either because they took it- which is how things work in Azeroth, or settled in places where nobody gave a damn, then why haven't the humans expressed any force in retaking them?

So the orcs who live there and raised their families think of the EK as their home and will defend it if they don't have to worry about being killed by their new "allies".
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  #41  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:26 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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But aside from Alterac, none of the examples you just gave depict that. Everything points to them sticking around because they are assholes who want to ensure that the humans have difficulty regaining their lands.
Y'know, there was a somewhat decent discussion going on for almost a page. So much for that. /thread
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  #42  
Old 08-01-2013, 05:42 PM
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They exist because Kel'thuzard created a spell that makes anyone who's ever seen the Scourge between two specific points in time be incapable of thinking of the Alliance in the same manner they did pre-invasion. And so, the Scarlets went insane when they tried to fight against the influence by sending emissaries to the south, and the Argents are mindless contrarians, so they decided to not try to spend time with the Alliance. Similarly, because the Scarlets hated undead as a matter of principle (in terms of being in the middle of a zombie apocalypse the likes the world has never seen before), the Argents decided to extend their hands to the Forsaken, because racism is always bad, even when the race being discriminated against fits the stereotype to a T.

In other words, Blizzard got lazy.
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  #43  
Old 08-01-2013, 07:26 PM
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...So, I think it was due to both them wanting manpower from the Horde and their isolation. Those reasons and maybe some other (allegedly) extreme methods somewhere might have separated them from the Alliance.
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  #44  
Old 08-01-2013, 08:02 PM
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Doesn't mean that the orcs wouldn't want the Scourge to actually make their presence known in Alterac Valley. The Scourge wanted Azeroth. No one was safe.
There are a billion different factions that "want Azeroth" and the one that any given person would devote themselves to defeating would logically be reliant on geographical proximity plus history.

The Frostwolves don't really have any of that, particularly since Alterac Valley is supposed to be super-defensible. They seemed far more keen to kill Dwarves as a matter of fact.

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Which the humans abandoned to them and never came back to take. If the humans want those lands back so bad, then why not just take it?
Of all the absurd arguments...

If Garrosh wants Stormwind so bad, why doesn't he just take it? If the Burning Legion wants Azeroth so bad, why don't they just take it? If the Night Elves want their immortality back, why don't they just take it?

The reason why the humans don't "just take it" is because when they try to retake their lands they have a tendency to get murdered by the Horde.

Quote:
Instead, despite Blueheart's family being from SoS, she instead of kicking the orcs out and reclaiming her home, she allows them to stay and jsut steals some supplies.

Again, if the humans want those lands that the orcs claimed for themselves, either because they took it- which is how things work in Azeroth, or settled in places where nobody gave a damn, then why haven't the humans expressed any force in retaking them?
This is because, as has been addressed numerous times, the Alliance as of late has been written to be full of morons who don't care about anything for the sake of the Horde storyline. If you need to throw out bad writing as your shield against my argument then it's a pretty good indication that your position sucks.

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So the orcs who live there and raised their families think of the EK as their home and will defend it if they don't have to worry about being killed by their new "allies".
All zero of the Orcs who live there and raised their families. Can you even name an orc settlement in the Eastern Kingdoms that isn't purely a military outpost? One where there are actually families and shit?
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  #45  
Old 08-01-2013, 08:26 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Can anyone break down or link to a breakdown of the Silver Hand's different branchings and evolutions? I know I've seen it before, but I don't have a grasp on it yet.
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  #46  
Old 08-01-2013, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Doesn't mean that the orcs wouldn't want the Scourge to actually make their presence known in Alterac Valley. The Scourge wanted Azeroth. No one was safe.



Which the humans abandoned to them and never came back to take. If the humans want those lands back so bad, then why not just take it?



Which the humans abandoned to them and never came back to take. If the humans want those lands back so bad, then why not just take it?

Instead, despite Blueheart's family being from SoS, she instead of kicking the orcs out and reclaiming her home, she allows them to stay and jsut steals some supplies.

Again, if the humans want those lands that the orcs claimed for themselves, either because they took it- which is how things work in Azeroth, or settled in places where nobody gave a damn, then why haven't the humans expressed any force in retaking them?

So the orcs who live there and raised their families think of the EK as their home and will defend it if they don't have to worry about being killed by their new "allies".
The only orcs that deserve a home in the EK are the Frostwolves (should be Frostworgs), every other group of orcs is unremittingly hostile to the Alliance or neutrals (Blackrock, Dragonmaw and several smaller groups that are Horde orcs). Holding onto a interment camp because it's where Doomhammer died (I think he died there) is rather stupid, especially since it's on human/Alliance land. Just because it is where he died, doesn't mean the orcs have any right or claim to the place.

Blizzard refuses to let the Alliance retake anything because of game balance, or some cockamamie reason.

Joanna Blueheart should have been stripped of her rank and put in a latrine squad for the rest of her military career. She made a militarily stupid decision in not burning Stonard.
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  #47  
Old 08-01-2013, 09:34 PM
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Can anyone break down or link to a breakdown of the Silver Hand's different branchings and evolutions? I know I've seen it before, but I don't have a grasp on it yet.
The Knights of the Silver Hand existed, then Arthas disbanded them, then some of the paladins ignored that. Some disgruntled paladins became the Scourge's off-screen death knights. A lot of paladins just died.

Alexandros Mograine's group was still around, and they split into the Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn after Mograine died. The most elite of the Scarlets were the Crimson Legion.

Stormwind and Ironforge's paladin trainers kept the Knights of the Silver Hand alive for a while. Maybe they were chapters isolated from the Scourge or maybe they came from Lordaeron. I do not know.

The Argent Dawn formed the elite and extreme Brotherhood of the Light and worked with the Scarlet Crusade to take down Naxxramas.

Tirion Fordring re-founded the Lordaeron Knights of the Silver Hand, who were dissolved one way or another due to Arthas.

The mostly dead Scarlet Crusade regrouped into the Scarlet Onslaught, who went to Northrend and later met up with remnants of the Scarlet Fleet from years before.

Tirion Fordring's Knights of the Silver Hand merged with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade temporarily merged with the Argent Crusade to form the Ashen Verdict.

Off the top of my head.
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  #48  
Old 08-01-2013, 10:23 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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The Knights of the Silver Hand existed, then Arthas disbanded them, then some of the paladins ignored that. Some disgruntled paladins became the Scourge's off-screen death knights. A lot of paladins just died.

Alexandros Mograine's group was still around, and they split into the Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn after Mograine died. The most elite of the Scarlets were the Crimson Legion.

Stormwind and Ironforge's paladin trainers kept the Knights of the Silver Hand alive for a while. Maybe they were chapters isolated from the Scourge or maybe they came from Lordaeron. I do not know.

The Argent Dawn formed the elite and extreme Brotherhood of the Light and worked with the Scarlet Crusade to take down Naxxramas.

Tirion Fordring re-founded the Lordaeron Knights of the Silver Hand, who were dissolved one way or another due to Arthas.

The mostly dead Scarlet Crusade regrouped into the Scarlet Onslaught, who went to Northrend and later met up with remnants of the Scarlet Fleet from years before.

Tirion Fordring's Knights of the Silver Hand merged with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade temporarily merged with the Argent Crusade to form the Ashen Verdict.

Off the top of my head.
I'll verify. This is accurate.
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  #49  
Old 08-02-2013, 12:20 AM
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One question to consider is, what benefit would have arisen from the Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn seeking to rejoin the Alliance? How would either of their causes have been helped?

Keep in mind that after the Third War, the Alliance was beset by myriad localized, homegrown threats and calamities. The sort of threats that could very possibly have had the Alliance leaders expecting Tyrosus and Co. to pull up stakes in Lordaeron and come "home" to defend those lands still actually held by the Alliance.

The paladins in fallen Lordaeron who founded the Scarlet Crusade, then the Argent Dawn, had their chosen cause and didn't want it hampered or sidelined by political entanglements with groups that might not share their priorities. That goes beyond the in-game neutrality when it comes to Horde and Alliance killing each other; by not just swearing fealty to the Alliance and not submitting to its authority, the Crusade/Dawn could keep their battle with the Scourge foremost and central to their efforts without having to worry about being recalled or hindered by interests within the Alliance who wouldn't necessarily consider their goals as important as they do.

Besides, if they'd rejoined the Alliance, Onyxia would have probably had Bolvar call them all home and make them quit the battle against the Scourge, at which point most of them would probably ignore such a command, go back to Lordaeron and form their neutral faction(s) to fight the undead anyway.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:30 AM
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The problem is that the battle against the Scourge should have also been the Alliance's number one priority after the Third War as well. The neutrals stole the Alliance's schtick.
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