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  #51  
Old 08-02-2013, 01:42 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
The Knights of the Silver Hand existed, then Arthas disbanded them, then some of the paladins ignored that. Some disgruntled paladins became the Scourge's off-screen death knights. A lot of paladins just died.
I don't think we need to take Arthas's bullshit into account.

To add to this, there was another non-Alexandros affiliated paladin resistance in the north, allied with Garithos, but chill about elves. These guys held the countryside near the Palace Gardens of Lordaeron.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
One question to consider is, what benefit would have arisen from the Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn seeking to rejoin the Alliance? How would either of their causes have been helped?
Well, if Garithos had the brains to seek Ironforge's help, why not Tyrosus?

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Keep in mind that after the Third War, the Alliance was beset by myriad localized, homegrown threats and calamities. The sort of threats that could very possibly have had the Alliance leaders expecting Tyrosus and Co. to pull up stakes in Lordaeron and come "home" to defend those lands still actually held by the Alliance.
Nobody asked Hillsbrad or Theramore to dismantle and retreat to help Stormwind.

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The paladins in fallen Lordaeron who founded the Scarlet Crusade, then the Argent Dawn, had their chosen cause and didn't want it hampered or sidelined by political entanglements with groups that might not share their priorities. That goes beyond the in-game neutrality when it comes to Horde and Alliance killing each other; by not just swearing fealty to the Alliance and not submitting to its authority, the Crusade/Dawn could keep their battle with the Scourge foremost and central to their efforts without having to worry about being recalled or hindered by interests within the Alliance who wouldn't necessarily consider their goals as important as they do.
What other important foreign policy priorities did the Alliance have in Vanilla? Blackrocks and dragons? Because most of the battlegrounds weren't of "war" status and orchestrated by offshoot factions.

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Besides, if they'd rejoined the Alliance, Onyxia would have probably had Bolvar call them all home and make them quit the battle against the Scourge, at which point most of them would probably ignore such a command, go back to Lordaeron and form their neutral faction(s) to fight the undead anyway.
This is an interesting scenario, though they wouldn't have known about it anyway.
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  #52  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:40 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Maybe in those 5 years from WCIII to Vanilla they were unable to leave Lordaeron because it was too dangerous and filled with way too many undead? Just a guess.
Yet we see Scarlet bishops in Stormwind.
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  #53  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:42 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
The problem is that the battle against the Scourge should have also been the Alliance's number one priority after the Third War as well. The neutrals stole the Alliance's schtick.
The forsaken and blood elves were busy fighting the scourge immediately! It is pretty much all the forsaken talked about.
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  #54  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:56 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Well... Dawn exist because some ancient monks needed to hide the key from Glory and the Crusade exists to get at that key. Simple as that.




if someone already did that joke i'll be sad.
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  #55  
Old 08-02-2013, 08:07 AM
Temo Temo is offline

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If you ver get the chance to talk with the devs, ask them about future plans about he argent crusade as a Kingdom, any plans at all.
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  #56  
Old 08-02-2013, 08:11 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The forsaken and blood elves were busy fighting the scourge immediately! It is pretty much all the forsaken talked about.
The Blood Elves didn't fight the Scourge outside their immediate starting area and the Forsaken killed far more humans than they did Scourge.
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  #57  
Old 08-02-2013, 08:32 AM
Darkwind Darkwind is offline

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Originally Posted by Rotal View Post
Well... Dawn exist because some ancient monks needed to hide the key from Glory and the Crusade exists to get at that key. Simple as that.

if someone already did that joke i'll be sad.
And what a mistake Dawn was...
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  #58  
Old 08-02-2013, 08:47 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
One question to consider is, what benefit would have arisen from the Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn seeking to rejoin the Alliance? How would either of their causes have been helped?

Keep in mind that after the Third War, the Alliance was beset by myriad localized, homegrown threats and calamities. The sort of threats that could very possibly have had the Alliance leaders expecting Tyrosus and Co. to pull up stakes in Lordaeron and come "home" to defend those lands still actually held by the Alliance.

The paladins in fallen Lordaeron who founded the Scarlet Crusade, then the Argent Dawn, had their chosen cause and didn't want it hampered or sidelined by political entanglements with groups that might not share their priorities. That goes beyond the in-game neutrality when it comes to Horde and Alliance killing each other; by not just swearing fealty to the Alliance and not submitting to its authority, the Crusade/Dawn could keep their battle with the Scourge foremost and central to their efforts without having to worry about being recalled or hindered by interests within the Alliance who wouldn't necessarily consider their goals as important as they do.

Besides, if they'd rejoined the Alliance, Onyxia would have probably had Bolvar call them all home and make them quit the battle against the Scourge, at which point most of them would probably ignore such a command, go back to Lordaeron and form their neutral faction(s) to fight the undead anyway.
Actually, I think Lady Prestor, aka Onyxia, would have been gleeful to send Stormwind's troops north to help the Argents and/or Scarlets. It would have served her purposes to divert much needed troop strength thousands of miles away from Stormwind and weakened the realm considerably, which serves her plans for weakening the kingdom for the black dragons to make a move.
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  #59  
Old 08-02-2013, 08:48 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So wait... the Ebon Blade aren't related at all?

(looks it up)

Ah, death knights.
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  #60  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:27 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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And what a mistake Dawn was...
but a hot one



the series did profit from it.
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  #61  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:28 AM
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Are we talking about Buffy or something? If we are, nah not really hot.
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  #62  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:29 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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She doesn't beat Tara so your tasteless ignorance shall be forgiven.
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  #63  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:30 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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She doesn't beat Tara so your tasteless ignorance shall be forgiven.
I'm sure you wont forgive this time, so I won't say what it.
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:33 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
The Blood Elves didn't fight the Scourge outside their immediate starting area and the Forsaken killed far more humans than they did Scourge.
They fought the scourge in the plaguelands just like the Alliance did. Than they were with the Horde in Northrend with the Sunreavers and the various blood elves in different outposts.

The forsaken just killed everybody. Those two races are the only ones that are introduced to the scourge right away.
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  #65  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:36 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
They fought the scourge in the plaguelands just like the Alliance did. Than they were with the Horde in Northrend with the Sunreavers and the various blood elves in different outposts.
Only in their capacity as players. Blood Elf NPC's did diddly squat outside their starting area.

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The forsaken just killed everybody. Those two races are the only ones that are introduced to the scourge right away.
So? I'd argue that the Forsaken stole the Alliance's stuff too.
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  #66  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:41 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Only in their capacity as players. Blood Elf NPC's did diddly squat outside their starting area.

So? I'd argue that the Forsaken stole the Alliance's stuff too.
Do the Sunreavers not count

Why would you argue that?
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  #67  
Old 08-02-2013, 09:58 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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If it was in Blizzard's interests to take the story in that direction, I can see exactly that happening; Tirion and whatever remaining living Lordaeronian nobility establish a new government as the nation gets reclaimed. But given how the logical conclusion of that narrative involves either redeeming the Forsaken or driving them out of Tirisfal/Undercity, I don't see it happening within the context of the WoW game.
But why?

I see people make this argument all the time but never was it backed by reason.

Lands were irreversibly lost before, in history and in fiction. Why must warcraft humans regain their ancestral home? Is that the only way to a good story?
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  #68  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:01 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Because they've repeatedly exhibited more than enough power to do so. When you consider their attachment to the land it makes no sense for them not to retake it.
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  #69  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:20 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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But why?

I see people make this argument all the time but never was it backed by reason.

Lands were irreversibly lost before, in history and in fiction. Why must warcraft humans regain their ancestral home? Is that the only way to a good story?
Only if it's a lost cause, I guess. Blizzard has made it pretty damn clear that who takes the land by force, owns that land. Irregardless if it's someone ancestral home.

Otherwise all land is troll land because it's the troll's ancestral land. Humans, elves and the rest are just squatters on the troll's land.

Although you could argue that the night elves have the claim since they were trolls pre-magic well.
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  #70  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:29 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You can't blame the fanbase for wanting it back when even Blizzard has taken steps in trying to get it back, or fails to give a good reason why they can't outside of gameplay. They've even admitted in a tweet that they would like to continue the story, idk if it means the Alliance wins or loses, but they can't because of a lack of resources.
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  #71  
Old 08-02-2013, 12:05 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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But why?

I see people make this argument all the time but never was it backed by reason.

Lands were irreversibly lost before, in history and in fiction. Why must warcraft humans regain their ancestral home? Is that the only way to a good story?
It depends on whether your qualification of a good story is whether or not it has a satisfying ending. I don't find "eternal conflict between righteous paladins and righteous deadites" to be a satisfying ending to a story, because the conflict isn't resolved. If the conflict in Lordaeron eventually becomes the Argent Crusade trying to destroy the Forsaken and the Forsaken trying to destroy them right back, then that's bait for a new narrative but it's not a complete story. The two logical ends to that narrative are "deadites win" or "paladins win." And because the Forsaken are the more irredeemable of the two, the majority are going to root for paladins winning, because that matches your typical tropes of fantasy.

Now, at the same time, there are shades to that. It's an interesting story to see that despite having been Scourged and then rejected by the rest of living humanity, the people of Lordaeron insist on staying in Lordaeron through their undeath. There's a good narrative there about loyalty and loss and a different perspective on the concept of immortality.

(Now, Blizzard doesn't capitalize on that story because the Forsaken are their Scourge-analogues for all the kids that loved playing skull-decorated deadite bastards. And hey, it's their world, so rock on.)

Meanwhile, fantasy as a genre is rife with the narrative of people trying to re-establish the old dynasty. There's a certain level of classical heroism involved with vanquishing evil and setting things back to the way they used to be. That can be a good story too, as long as it's written well. I think that's the main reason why people say "yeah, humans should get Lordaeron back"; because it's a pretty standard trope in fantasy and because the heroic characters we identify with (in this case, the Dawn/Crusade) should win in the end and achieve their desire.

So no, it's NOT the only way to a good story. It's the way to ANOTHER story. And maybe that story gets told in the context of Warcraft, maybe it doesn't.

I don't honestly give a shit what happens to Lordaeron. If there's a good narrative there, fine. If not, I'll satisfy my desire for good narrative elsewhere.
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  #72  
Old 08-02-2013, 01:20 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Because they've repeatedly exhibited more than enough power to do so. When you consider their attachment to the land it makes no sense for them not to retake it.
Can they really do much without redeeming the forsaken at some point? They should be more like the Ebon Blade than what they are now. The Ebon Blade motifs should of been their thing.
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  #73  
Old 08-02-2013, 01:31 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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  #74  
Old 08-02-2013, 02:03 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Can they really do much without redeeming the forsaken at some point? They should be more like the Ebon Blade than what they are now. The Ebon Blade motifs should of been their thing.
See my aforementioned "Forsaken are Diet Scourge" assertion. There is a very particular reason why the Forsaken have been implemented the way they have and followed the narrative they've adhered to through five titles. That reason is because playing the Forsaken gives players the chance to be villainous unscrupulous deathmetal bastards without having to feel guilty about it, because they're aligned with the heroic Horde.

Sure, the Ebon Blade hits the "repentant former weapon of evil" concept better, but Blizzard already knew what they wanted to get out of the Forsaken and doesn't see any reason to budge. They're a popular racial choice (14-17% of all Horde characters) and give the quest designers the opportunity to implement borderline-evil quests with impunity.
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  #75  
Old 08-02-2013, 02:17 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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See my aforementioned "Forsaken are Diet Scourge" assertion. There is a very particular reason why the Forsaken have been implemented the way they have and followed the narrative they've adhered to through five titles. That reason is because playing the Forsaken gives players the chance to be villainous unscrupulous deathmetal bastards without having to feel guilty about it, because they're aligned with the heroic Horde.

Sure, the Ebon Blade hits the "repentant former weapon of evil" concept better, but Blizzard already knew what they wanted to get out of the Forsaken and doesn't see any reason to budge. They're a popular racial choice (14-17% of all Horde characters) and give the quest designers the opportunity to implement borderline-evil quests with impunity.
In short, everyone should aspire to be just as edgy as the forsaken.

In games, comics, movies and television. In the name of coolness. Everything must be darker, even if you're good guys.
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