Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:01 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,519
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default Death of the Author and Mute Protagonist

Good morning guys.

What are your thoughts on the concepts of death of the author and mute protagonist?

Regarding the first, I really don't fancy pondering what happened post-epilogue and I even loathe epilogues that leave unsolved plot threads behind. It's almost as if the author doesn't even care for the expectation he built on the audience. However, I kinda enjoy wondering what happened during ellipses and am very fond of finding out what was the author attempting to represent by using his work as a metaphor.

As to the latter, I also don't like mute protagonists. I like to compare Final Fantasy to Pokémon in that regard, and giving actual lines to the main character makes everything feel more organic. If Final Fantasy VI had a mute centric character for instance, it would've been ruined.

Your thoughts?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:27 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

The death of the author does not work, but there are times it should.

The mute protagonist is one of the silliest and best innovations in video games.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:29 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

I think if an author has said something about how they want their work to be viewed, that should be taken into account. Same if they're politically active and such.

That doesn't mean that's the only way to interpret it though, or that readers interpretations are inherently bad or wrong.


I think how well Silent-Protagonist works depends on the TYPE of game. Whether it's dialogue heavy for other characters or it's more like, say. Journey.

Legacy characters without dialogue are alright, like Mario, but in general I think the trope is going to be used a lot less, which isn't a bad thing since I think it'll mean when it is used it's done more meaningfully.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:41 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

No, the understanding of the work should never surpass the author's original concept, I never support Death of the Author.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:48 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,136

Orb of Lightning

My thoughts are that we need more threads like this.

I'm inclined to favor the death of the author. The artist's role is to present art to the audience, not to tell the audience how that art is meant to be interpreted. And if the artist has any amount of talent, they shouldn't need to. Their works should transcend their own personal perspective and touch upon the fundamentals of the human condition, comprehensible to any who choose to view it.

Umberto Eco was a bit of an eccentric who took the death of the author to the extreme. No, not like that, though he is, alas, no longer with us. In his postscript to The Name of the Rose, he describes novels as something like 'machines for generating interpretations,' and claims that an author is in peril of overstepping his prerogative even by giving his work a title: that by offering a title, the author threatens to impose the specific meaning he saw in his own writing onto his audience. He chose "the name of the rose" because it struck him as so potentially rich in meaning that it holds no specific meaning on its own.

I'm personally of the opinion that the title of a work should not be considered so separate from the text of a work, and that it is no more an imposition on the author's part than their prosaic style, the names of their characters, the structure of their narrative, or any other aspect they constructed. I do, however, agree with the sentiment that a novel should be designed to generate interpretations, and not simply to present the reader with what the author was thinking at the time.

On the matter of the mute protagonist, I think it can be applied to good effect, but that it is more often a misguided attempt on the artist's part to preemptively encourage their own figurative death. For the author to present their characters' behavior is a necessary compromise for the audience to even approach the story, even before they can begin interpretation. Ambiguity is no bad thing, but some artists may forget that their role is to present the initial substance for their audience to interpret.

That said, one of the stories I've got on a burner somewhere has a protagonist who chews her own tongue out in the first prologue. I think I can do some interesting things with a mute psychopath whose motivations might be unclear at times even to the audience.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:19 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

As much as I once disliked the concept of the death of the author, I had no choice but to accept it as truth. Stories take on a life of their own, regardless of the author's opinions or input.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:35 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,519
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
As much as I once disliked the concept of the death of the author, I had no choice but to accept it as truth. Stories take on a life of their own, regardless of the author's opinions or input.
There are differences.

Star Wars and Blade Runner, for instance.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:58 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
There are differences.

Star Wars and Blade Runner, for instance.
I don't understand what you mean.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:33 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Troubadour
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,519
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
I don't understand what you mean.
The Star Wars films have a clear end (especially VI). However, Blade Runner leaves some things unsolved.

Whilst both might develop a life of their own, we still have one more clarified setting and another more open to personal interpretation and theories.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:24 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

Elune
Saranus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 5,682
BattleTag: DrRobert#1475

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
There are differences.

Star Wars and Blade Runner, for instance.
Not sure if you really understand what "Death of the Author" refers to. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether the story has a clear or ambiguous ending. If anything, Star Wars is a great example of death of the author since George Lucas has basically no control over the IP anymore and the world and stories have taken on a life of their own with dozens of artists and authors contributing over the years. Not to mention the millions of fans each with their own opinions and interpretations.

Lotta people don't like the postmodern, but postmodern it is anyway in spite of their protest. Anansi and Hlaalu are right. You don't have to like it, but saying death of the author/postmodern perspective are false or incorrect is just willful ignorance. Anansi hit the nail on the head: art in all forms is an expression of human nature and consciousness, how that expression is interpreted by the public often has little to do with the artist or their intent. Even when the artists intent weighs heavily into someone's interpretation, that's still just their interpretation. IE: It's Slowpoke's personal interpretation that an author's will should be gospel truth, but this is not so for others, not necessarily even the author.
__________________
Now imagine a music, dear readers, heavy with cellos at a rapid staccato. Cellos held between thighs in a dark room. The little room of Harry's chest as he walks with his teammates to the opening gate of his first Test of Cribbage. They are a rag-tag group of champions, this bunch, and with Harry, the near-perfect new god, they know they will dominate the day. Harry is a world laced with rivers of wizardly blood. He is ready.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:36 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

Elune
SmokeBlader's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 30,980

Default

The silent protagonist is tricky and depends on the execution. Return to Castle Wolfenstein and F.E.A.R. handle it very well. They're FPS games but still, sometimes I prefer playing as ''myself'' instead of a roided up Duke Nukem shouting bad catchphrases.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:10 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

Elune
Lon-ami's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 12,552
BattleTag: Lonami#2916

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
As much as I once disliked the concept of the death of the author, I had no choice but to accept it as truth. Stories take on a life of their own, regardless of the author's opinions or input.
That's a perversion. The author's vision is always the most important.

If you want to make your own interpretation, fandom, or whatever, ok, but don't try to hijack the original author's work for yourself. You're appropriating something, and even worse, changing it and deeming it "better".

Would you be fine with some retard "reinterpreting" a classic painting and then calling it "better" or "equal in quality".

Same for books. This postmodernism bullshit is destroying true art.
__________________


Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:14 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,465
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
That's a perversion. The author's vision is always the most important.

If you want to make your own interpretation, fandom, or whatever, ok, but don't try to hijack the original author's work for yourself. You're appropriating something, and even worse, changing it and deeming it "better".

Would you be fine with some retard "reinterpreting" a classic painting and then calling it "better" or "equal in quality".

Same for books. This postmodernism bullshit is destroying true art.
It really doesn't matter. People will interpret things their own way.

The author could write a book's worth of articles explaining what they really mean. Some readers will be persuaded. Some will not. Quite a few won't even know about the articles, because they only care about the book, not the author.

You can rant and rail about how readers should pay more attention to what the author says, but that's just being idealistic. Most will not.

As someone who has published original fiction, I do not necessarily care for this fact. But it is nonetheless a fact.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-29-2017, 02:25 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

Elune
Lon-ami's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 12,552
BattleTag: Lonami#2916

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
It really doesn't matter. People will interpret things their own way.

The author could write a book's worth of articles explaining what they really mean. Some readers will be persuaded. Some will not. Quite a few won't even know about the articles, because they only care about the book, not the author.

You can rant and rail about how readers should pay more attention to what the author says, but that's just being idealistic. Most will not.

As someone who has published original fiction, I do not necessarily care for this fact. But it is nonetheless a fact.
Of course, when have I denied that?

What I'm saying is that your opinion is shit. The utmost interpretation of a work comes by the creator. Reader interpretations should stand below it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Aside from physical destruction, how does one 'destroy' art?

2. Who says what 'true' art is?
By perverting the meaning of the word, and putting garbage at the same level as original pieces with work, craft, and skill behind them.

A goddamn folded trash can is not art, it's bullshit, like most modern art. They pretend to make it valuable through "artistic interpretations", "hidden meanings", or "political messages". It's just shit with a pretentious excuse for incompetence.
__________________


Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

~Main: Expansion theorycrafting, Expansions list, The Age of Nightmare, Empire of the Tides (coming soon)~
~Fan ficton: Anachronos Journey: The Timeless Heir~ ~Geography of continents series: Old Kalimdor (original), Pandaria~
~Locations as zones series: Azjol-Nerub, Barrow Deeps, Zul'Aman, Demon Hunter zone, Caverns of Time~

Last edited by Lon-ami; 05-29-2017 at 02:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:27 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,136

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
That's a perversion. The author's vision is always the most important.
How so? What do you think a book is? A manual for understanding the author's mind? Or a piece of art, by which the audience may reflect upon themselves and the world around them?

It's madness, of course, for any audience to hold up their own interpretation as the true meaning of the story, but the author's role is only to provide the material, not the interpretation. Their intentions may be interesting to consider, but for any serious work of art they should not be necessary to understand it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:44 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
This postmodernism bullshit is destroying true art.
1. Aside from physical destruction, how does one 'destroy' art?

2. Who says what 'true' art is?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:00 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,261

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Aside from physical destruction, how does one 'destroy' art?

2. Who says what 'true' art is?
When everything is art, nothing is.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:34 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,166

Default

Okay, Anansi, I am guilty of only skimming on longer posts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
That said, one of the stories I've got on a burner somewhere has a protagonist who chews her own tongue out in the first prologue. I think I can do some interesting things with a mute psychopath whose motivations might be unclear at times even to the audience.
Interesting premise! Are there companions with her who've learned to put up with the silence, or is it a lone wolf situation?

I want a scene with the mute protagonist interrogating someone for information.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:51 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,136

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Interesting premise! Are there companions with her who've learned to put up with the silence, or is it a lone wolf situation?
The story begins as she's about to be executed for treason, but she chews the rune for fire into her tongue and escapes her guards by spitting burning blood into their eyes and killing them while they're incapacitated. She used to be a sort of assassin for a cult of anarchist magi, but now she's a mad dog gone off her leash. The driving conflict is a three-way hatred between herself and the other two main characters (an ex-imperial guard and a revolutionary).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I want a scene with the mute protagonist interrogating someone for information.
Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:46 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

Ethermancer - Admin
Cantus's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DC, U.S.
Posts: 11,091
BattleTag: Cantus#1700

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
Mind if I take a quick shot at it?
__________________

Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:55 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,145

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
The story begins as she's about to be executed for treason, but she chews the rune for fire into her tongue and escapes her guards by spitting burning blood into their eyes and killing them while they're incapacitated. She used to be a sort of assassin for a cult of anarchist magi, but now she's a mad dog gone off her leash. The driving conflict is a three-way hatred between herself and the other two main characters (an ex-imperial guard and a revolutionary).


Sounds like a challenge! I accept.
..........


One of my evolving characters is a Vampiress who in the opening chapter has holy runes carved into her throat during jer transition to prevent her from being able to talk and charm people. Also makes feeding painful...

She's an (unwilling) assassin for a deep buried religous cult inside the standing religous order who want to overthrow the monarchy.

I've mentioned the character in other iterations before.
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,136

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
..........


One of my evolving characters is a Vampiress who in the opening chapter has holy runes carved into her throat during jer transition to prevent her from being able to talk and charm people. Also makes feeding painful...

She's an (unwilling) assassin for a deep buried religous cult inside the standing religous order who want to overthrow the monarchy.

I've mentioned the character in other iterations before.
Smells like copyright infringement to me. See you in court.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-29-2017, 11:31 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

Eternal
Arashi's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,796

Default

Voiceless protagonists are the most superior protagonists.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:17 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,949

Default

By the way, there's a Vigilante My Hero Academia spinoff you should read, Mutter!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-29-2017, 03:02 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
By the way, there's a Vigilante My Hero Academia spinoff you should read, Mutter!
Thanks Nazja, though I've been reading it before, I found it really neat Knuckleduster is Quirkless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
One argument is to rely solely on what the text says.

Nabokov once wrote an essay about how Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" was ironic in that as a beetle, Gregor could have flown away if he'd chosen. But the text doesn't really support this, since the story never explicitly says what kind of vermin Gregor is transformed/transforms into.

In fairness, Nabokov admitted in the essay that his statement only works if one makes certain assumptions about the metamorphosis. However, the text never assigns a specific species to Gregor. Thus, any honest interpretation has to take this into account.

But again, people may or may not read closely. "The Metamorphosis" never says that Gregor became a cockroach. However, the idea of him being a cockroach has resonated in popular culture and become memetic. People who've never read the story still assume it's about a guy who turns into a roach. Nothing can be done about this.
That's definitely one angle, and I kind of like it since it leaves that ambiguity, on whether he could've flown or not, up to the reader, which is my preference. The Author can have their personal view but it doesn't really lock folks out of their own headcanons and as you've said there's nothing that can be really done about popular conception of it as time passes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
By perverting the meaning of the word, and putting garbage at the same level as original pieces with work, craft, and skill behind them.

A goddamn folded trash can is not art, it's bullshit, like most modern art. They pretend to make it valuable through "artistic interpretations", "hidden meanings", or "political messages". It's just shit with a pretentious excuse for incompetence.
So are you thinking other people are lying about what they like to seem pretentious or what? Because I don't quite think that's the same thing as Death of the Author.


Someone can call it art, I just don't think it's good art.

I'll agree a lot of modern art doesn't strike me as good or interesting or meaningful but then again I believe a some of the 'art world' decides what's 'good' as a form of class based exclusion, or is at least partially based on implicit bias against certain types of art.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
critical thinking, literature

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.