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  #26  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:16 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
This is all kind of irrelevant. The finished work is all that really matters. That's what people are consuming. The vast majority of the public does not consume supplemental materials nor should they have to.
They are finished, but they still have the power to decide yes and no in the story. Their interpretation of the law, the fact and the event of the universe is way above anyone else. The audience have the equal power to decide its quality though.
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:16 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Hero Academia proved the Incredibles wrong with the superpower version of that quote, and it's wrong about Art too.


Saying something is or isn't art is pointless, if someone thinks it's art, then you're not gonna convince them otherwise. The question becomes whether it's "good" art or not.


None of that relates to the debate of Interpretation though, which is what 'death of the author' revolves around. The Author's interpretation, if they have a stated one or major political leanings, should be taken into account, but that shouldn't stop anyone from coming to different conclusions.
One argument is to rely solely on what the text says.

Nabokov once wrote an essay about how Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" was ironic in that as a beetle, Gregor could have flown away if he'd chosen. But the text doesn't really support this, since the story never explicitly says what kind of vermin Gregor is transformed/transforms into.

In fairness, Nabokov admitted in the essay that his statement only works if one makes certain assumptions about the metamorphosis. However, the text never assigns a specific species to Gregor. Thus, any honest interpretation has to take this into account.

But again, people may or may not read closely. "The Metamorphosis" never says that Gregor became a cockroach. However, the idea of him being a cockroach has resonated in popular culture and become memetic. People who've never read the story still assume it's about a guy who turns into a roach. Nothing can be done about this.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:17 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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By the way, there's a Vigilante My Hero Academia spinoff you should read, Mutter!
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  #29  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:22 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Their interpretation of the law, the fact and the event of the universe is way above anyone else.
I mean, even if I agreed with you, this wouldn't be Death of the Author we'd be talking about. It would be canon.

Death of the Author weighs the author's interpretation of the 'canon' against that of the audience. What moral judgments ought to be made, what symbols represent which actual things, what the meanings and messages are meant to be.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:35 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The following is a quote from a very old book:

Sophistry and cleverness are an aid to lawlessness; rites and music are symptoms of dissipations and licence; kindness and benevolence are the foster‑mother of transgressions; employment and promotion are opportunities for the rapacity of the wicked. If lawlessness is aided, it becomes current; if there are symptoms of dissipation and licence, they will become the practice; if there is a foster‑mother for transgressions, they will arise; if there are opportunities for the rapacity of the wicked, they will never cease. If these eight things come together, the people will be stronger than the government; but if these eight things are non‑existent in a state, the government will be stronger than the people. If the people are stronger than the government, the state is weak; if the government is stronger than the people, the army is strong. For if these eight things exist, the ruler has no one to use for defence and war, with the result that the state will be dismembered and will come to ruin; but if there are not these eight things, the ruler has the wherewithal for defence and war, with the result that the state will flourish and attain supremacy.


Do you think that this text
A) Is the blueprint for a great state?
B) Is the blueprint for a dystopia?
C) Is something else?
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  #31  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:51 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I mean, even if I agreed with you, this wouldn't be Death of the Author we'd be talking about. It would be canon.

Death of the Author weighs the author's interpretation of the 'canon' against that of the audience. What moral judgments ought to be made, what symbols represent which actual things, what the meanings and messages are meant to be.
What symbols represent which actual things? What the meanings and messages are meant to be?

The author has the absolute right over "what".

How was the characterization? How was the plot twist? How was the consistency of the franchise?

The audience have the equal power to decide "how".
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  #32  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:52 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The author has the absolute right over "what".
Yeah, no. This is the difference between 'art' and 'instruction.'
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #33  
Old 05-29-2017, 12:57 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Yeah, no. This is the difference between 'art' and 'instruction.'
Yes, that's part of the author's right. It's his/her creation and it's up for him/her to give the answer.
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  #34  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:02 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Hero Academia proved the Incredibles wrong with the superpower version of that quote, and it's wrong about Art too.


Saying something is or isn't art is pointless, if someone thinks it's art, then you're not gonna convince them otherwise. The question becomes whether it's "good" art or not.


None of that relates to the debate of Interpretation though, which is what 'death of the author' revolves around. The Author's interpretation, if they have a stated one or major political leanings, should be taken into account, but that shouldn't stop anyone from coming to different conclusions.
This post is art.
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  #35  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:25 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
It really doesn't matter. People will interpret things their own way.

The author could write a book's worth of articles explaining what they really mean. Some readers will be persuaded. Some will not. Quite a few won't even know about the articles, because they only care about the book, not the author.

You can rant and rail about how readers should pay more attention to what the author says, but that's just being idealistic. Most will not.

As someone who has published original fiction, I do not necessarily care for this fact. But it is nonetheless a fact.
Of course, when have I denied that?

What I'm saying is that your opinion is shit. The utmost interpretation of a work comes by the creator. Reader interpretations should stand below it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. Aside from physical destruction, how does one 'destroy' art?

2. Who says what 'true' art is?
By perverting the meaning of the word, and putting garbage at the same level as original pieces with work, craft, and skill behind them.

A goddamn folded trash can is not art, it's bullshit, like most modern art. They pretend to make it valuable through "artistic interpretations", "hidden meanings", or "political messages". It's just shit with a pretentious excuse for incompetence.
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:38 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I have things to say on the subject of artistic vs economic value, and the folly of those who would confuse the two, but I don't have time for an essay right now.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:39 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
Of course, when have I denied that?

What I'm saying is that your opinion is shit. The utmost interpretation of a work comes by the creator. Reader interpretations should stand below it.
So Hermione is of African descent? JK Rowling said so, even though the text she wrote disagrees.
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2017, 01:45 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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JK Rowling can do whatever with her creation, she might not be able to decide the adaptation though.

I think Pansy Parkinson should look like this in the movies. Too bad she was replaced for being too pretty.

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  #39  
Old 05-29-2017, 02:02 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
By the way, there's a Vigilante My Hero Academia spinoff you should read, Mutter!
Thanks Nazja, though I've been reading it before, I found it really neat Knuckleduster is Quirkless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
One argument is to rely solely on what the text says.

Nabokov once wrote an essay about how Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" was ironic in that as a beetle, Gregor could have flown away if he'd chosen. But the text doesn't really support this, since the story never explicitly says what kind of vermin Gregor is transformed/transforms into.

In fairness, Nabokov admitted in the essay that his statement only works if one makes certain assumptions about the metamorphosis. However, the text never assigns a specific species to Gregor. Thus, any honest interpretation has to take this into account.

But again, people may or may not read closely. "The Metamorphosis" never says that Gregor became a cockroach. However, the idea of him being a cockroach has resonated in popular culture and become memetic. People who've never read the story still assume it's about a guy who turns into a roach. Nothing can be done about this.
That's definitely one angle, and I kind of like it since it leaves that ambiguity, on whether he could've flown or not, up to the reader, which is my preference. The Author can have their personal view but it doesn't really lock folks out of their own headcanons and as you've said there's nothing that can be really done about popular conception of it as time passes.


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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
By perverting the meaning of the word, and putting garbage at the same level as original pieces with work, craft, and skill behind them.

A goddamn folded trash can is not art, it's bullshit, like most modern art. They pretend to make it valuable through "artistic interpretations", "hidden meanings", or "political messages". It's just shit with a pretentious excuse for incompetence.
So are you thinking other people are lying about what they like to seem pretentious or what? Because I don't quite think that's the same thing as Death of the Author.


Someone can call it art, I just don't think it's good art.

I'll agree a lot of modern art doesn't strike me as good or interesting or meaningful but then again I believe a some of the 'art world' decides what's 'good' as a form of class based exclusion, or is at least partially based on implicit bias against certain types of art.
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  #40  
Old 05-29-2017, 02:46 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I generally loathe both.
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  #41  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:57 PM
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My main criticism towards Death of the Author is regarding unsolved plot threads after the end of a work.

Post-work stuff, like expanded universes and new interpretations are part of a different issue than Death of the Author, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also hoarding control of what the public is gonna interpret is unnecessary. There are many cases of the releasing of a new work of art changing how a previously released work was being interpreted.

EDIT 2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The following is a quote from a very old book:

Sophistry and cleverness are an aid to lawlessness; rites and music are symptoms of dissipations and licence; kindness and benevolence are the foster‑mother of transgressions; employment and promotion are opportunities for the rapacity of the wicked. If lawlessness is aided, it becomes current; if there are symptoms of dissipation and licence, they will become the practice; if there is a foster‑mother for transgressions, they will arise; if there are opportunities for the rapacity of the wicked, they will never cease. If these eight things come together, the people will be stronger than the government; but if these eight things are non‑existent in a state, the government will be stronger than the people. If the people are stronger than the government, the state is weak; if the government is stronger than the people, the army is strong. For if these eight things exist, the ruler has no one to use for defence and war, with the result that the state will be dismembered and will come to ruin; but if there are not these eight things, the ruler has the wherewithal for defence and war, with the result that the state will flourish and attain supremacy.


Do you think that this text
A) Is the blueprint for a great state?
B) Is the blueprint for a dystopia?
C) Is something else?
Sounds to me like either The Prince (Machiavelli) or Leviathan (Hobbes).
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  #42  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:09 PM
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I don't see how Authorial Rule (at least in the way it's applied to novels) applies to say, Warcraft. Not only does Metzen not actually own this series but he, his crewmates, and the games themselves have repeatedly contradicted each-other and themselves. And that's without bringing up supplemental sources like Chronicles or novels done by outside help like that Arthas book.

As for a Mute Protagonist, it depends on what you're dealing with. I'm not against it if it's a game where the player character is just a tool for you or I to walk through the game's setting.
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  #43  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:21 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I'll side with those who think some degree of the death of the author will happen inevitably, people will just interpret things from their own context. The artistry of the writer lies in making sure they come to the conclusions you want them to without making your work heavy handed.
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  #44  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:57 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Sounds to me like either The Prince or Leviathan.
It's older and not a work of fiction. Rather, it was meant to be a guide to how to run a state properly.

Farming, trade and office are the three permanent functions in a state, and these three functions give rise to six parasitic functions, which are called: care for old age, living on others, beauty, love, ambition and virtuous conduct. If these six parasites find an attachment, there will be dismemberment.


If virtuous officials are employed, the people will love their own relatives, but if wicked officials are employed, the people will love the statutes. To agree with, and to respond to, others is what the virtuous do; to differ from, and to spy upon, others is what the wicked do. If the virtuous are placed in positions of evidence, transgressions will remain hidden; but if the wicked are employed, crimes will be punished. In the former case the people will be stronger than the law; in the latter, the law will be stronger than the people. If the people are stronger than the law, there is lawlessness in the state, but if the law is stronger than the people, the army will be strong. Therefore is it said: 'Governing through good people leads to lawlessness and dismemberment; governing through wicked people leads to order and strength.'


Punishment produces force, force produces strength, strength produces awe, awe produces virtue. Virtue has its origin in punishments.
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  #45  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:15 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
A goddamn folded trash can is not art, it's bullshit, like most modern art.
*Cracks knuckles* Arright, let's get this party started.

What do you suppose is the fundamental difference between a folded trash can and, say, the Mona Lisa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
It's older and not a work of fiction. Rather, it was meant to be a guide to how to run a state properly.
Sounds like Confucious to me, but I can't be sure.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.

Last edited by Anansi; 05-30-2017 at 05:19 AM..
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  #46  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:50 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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It's older and not a work of fiction. Rather, it was meant to be a guide to how to run a state properly.
Plato's Republic?
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  #47  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:57 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Jeff, I am impressed. Don't see too many quoting Shang Yang these days.
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  #48  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:23 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
*Cracks knuckles* Arright, let's get this party started.

What do you suppose is the fundamental difference between a folded trash can and, say, the Mona Lisa?
Art is meant to elevate the human condition and is an attempt to mimic the divine. A trash can is profane. Again, if everything is art, nothing is. It devalues the idea of true art with profane art that does not seek to elevate the human condition, but to diminish it.
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  #49  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:03 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Art is meant to elevate the human condition and is an attempt to mimic the divine.
Fundamental ambiguities aside, your definition of art is myopic even by historical standards. By general consensus, art has as much business imitating the terrestrial or even the profane as it does the divine.

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It devalues the idea of true art with profane art that does not seek to elevate the human condition, but to diminish it.
You'd get along great with Tolstoy.

But you, like him, seem to be drawing a line between 'good and moral' art and 'bad and immoral' art, rather than between 'art' and 'not-art.' As well you might, because defining this word is a fool's errand. It doesn't even stem from the right roots.

Also like Tolstoy, you presume to understand what elevates and what diminishes the human condition, and suppose that only art which is in line with what you believe to be the current cultural ethos (namely, your own personal perspective) is 'appropriate' or 'true' art.

Ultimately, art is a meaningless label which was only recently applied by the idle rich to describe what they believed to be beautiful. Like beauty, it is subjective. You have been conned, sir, into believing that 'true art' ever actually existed.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #50  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:23 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Art is meant to elevate the human condition and is an attempt to mimic the divine. A trash can is profane. Again, if everything is art, nothing is. It devalues the idea of true art with profane art that does not seek to elevate the human condition, but to diminish it.
So, what do you think of Caravaggio and Andy Warhol?
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