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Old 07-01-2014, 05:01 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Grunt Confusion Over Allegiance

Now I'm making another new topic, and this time I'm not talking about Garrosh. This time, it's the orcish clans in general, in relation to Warlords of Draenor.

In this we see the chaotic, Depending-On-The-Writer procedure that wrecked Garrosh. Some are portrayed as irredeemably evil, others are treated as virtuous or skilled, but presented in a thoroughly dark manner. To illustrate the point, let me demonstrate, the differing portrayals of Ner'zhul and his Shadowmoon clan and Kargath Bladefist and his Shattered Hand clan:
Ner'zhul/Shadowmoon: When the concept was first released online, Ner'zhul was described as forward-thinking and contemplative, but caught in the middle of a rising tide of violence that he wasn't in a good place to oppose. His clan was said to be destroying the planet but it wasn't clear how. By now, it's been added that Garrosh discredited them by revealing Ner'zhul's status as a pawn, and when presented with the Join Or Die option, Ner'zhul chose to join. He and the Shadowmoon start calling on void magic to contribute to Garrosh's new army. The little screen time the shaman who led the Horde of Draenor in our timeline gets so far portrays him as loyal to the Iron Horde (despite his mentioned reluctance) and a bit of a loon.
He doesn't get any sympathetic actions or scenes, I notice. Which is okay if they're still developing him, but I want to know what kind of portrayal they're going with. Like I've said before, it doesn't work for me when establishing lore requires me to use my imagination. This isn't like with the possible alternate interpretations of Arthas; his motives and actions were clear cut and well-documented. Ner'zhul's intended level of sympathy seems to be in flux.

Meanwhile...
Kargath Bladefist/Shattered Hand: Anyone who knows about Bladefist being a member of the Shadow Council or leading the Fel Horde back in The Burning Crusade can probably guess what kind of guy our old friend Kargath is. He was first described as "the most hate-filled orc ever to attach a scythe to the stump of his severed wrist". Meanwhile, the Shattered Hand do the same thing, and together they live a lifestyle akin to BDSM. A while later it was revealed Kargath and his clan are former slaves of the ogres, and Kargath cut off his hand to free himself and lead them in an uprising, after which the clan was formed.
That certainly sounds like something we'd sympathise with, even admire, but the Bladefist Bunch are all the bad guys and their boss is the Final Boss of Highmaul, one of the two raids in the initial patch, rendering all of that moot. I mean, Bladefist doesn't have nearly enough fans to survive a boss fight. No dice.

But those things aren't really what's bothering me. No, that would be the situation with the Frostwolves and the Thunderlords.

Now, I created my username because, in one headcanon I created when I was younger, the Thunderlord Fortress questline ended with old Garm Wolfbrother calling you one of his clan, and therefore, the last of the Thunderlords. I consider it one of my early non-written narrative endeavours that sucked the least, so it seemed most appropriate to use when I stumbled upon this forum. I mean, all the quests you do to avenge their fall to the ogres, the acceptance, the portrayal of the Thunderlords in the books - it all implies that they were genuinely okay guys (well, about as okay as you're allowed to be if you lived before Green Je- Thrall.

Instead, Blizzard justifies the relentless killing of them, while at the same time making them actually cool, by making them relentlessly, irredeemably evil. Their chieftain is really a Frostwolf kinslayer; they don't get a single line of dialogue that suggests they have any integrity; Ga'nar kills the Iron Wolf's three sons and we're supposed to cheer - or put it this way, we have no choice but to be party to it. The Frostwolves react to them like utter sociopaths, and we're made to want to side with them because they're the lighter shade of dark.

Three things I feel:

1. The time the Thunderlords appear in force as cool and badass is the same time they get hit with the villain ball and have their asses handed to them by the Frostwolves.

2. I appreciate the early signs for Thrall that his ancestors aren't as great as history makes them look, but please don't try to make them sympathetic by making the other side utterly worse. The message gets to garbled and caught up in controversy.

3. It's a real shame Blizzard took this route, because the same time they start introducing the Garrisons, which are shaping up to be cool, dynamic and exactly the surge in new ideas and playstyle that Mists of Pandaria was supposed to be is the same time Thrall's special ancestors became our wonderful new do-no-wrong allies. Lame.

Anyway, that's my take. I'd like to hear from the rest of you about how you feel about this.
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Last edited by Last of the Thunderlords; 07-01-2014 at 05:15 PM.. Reason: An addendum
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:24 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Bleeding Hollow gets the same treatment, its a big problem with WoD.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:47 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Bleeding Hollow gets the same treatment, its a big problem with WoD.
Yeah. I mean, so far, the worst thing you can say happened to the Bleeding Hollow is that they got the Tarzan treatment, but Kilrogg Deadeye was one of the most awesome orcs in history, but people ignore him to debate the heroism of Grom, the evilness of Gul'dan, how much of a better Lich King Arthas or Ner'zhul was etc. His son Jorin struck me as one of the most firm but rational, defensive but open orcs in Nagrand, never mind elsewhere, and yet we get no mention of him afterwards - just Dranosh's time in the Horde-cut-tragically-short and Garrosh's fish flopping nature. How wunderbar that we see their clan promptly disappear once the intro scenes are over, and that Kilrogg is somehow just as evil as, say, Blackhand or Gul'dan.

Heh, for a while after I saw all that rubbish going on in Frostfire Ridge I thought about calling myself Last Of The Laughing Skull, or Last Of The Burning Blade or whatever, but I'm not that susceptible to guilt by association.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:53 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Last of the Thunderlords View Post
Yeah. I mean, so far, the worst thing you can say happened to the Bleeding Hollow is that they got the Tarzan treatment, but Kilrogg Deadeye was one of the most awesome orcs in history, but people ignore him to debate the heroism of Grom, the evilness of Gul'dan, how much of a better Lich King Arthas or Ner'zhul was etc. His son Jorin struck me as one of the most firm but rational, defensive but open orcs in Nagrand, never mind elsewhere, and yet we get no mention of him afterwards - just Dranosh's time in the Horde-cut-tragically-short and Garrosh's fish flopping nature. How wunderbar that we see their clan promptly disappear once the intro scenes are over, and that Kilrogg is somehow just as evil as, say, Blackhand or Gul'dan.

Heh, for a while after I saw all that rubbish going on in Frostfire Ridge I thought about calling myself Last Of The Laughing Skull, or Last Of The Burning Blade or whatever, but I'm not that susceptible to guilt by association.
Pretty much, Danath even respected Kilrogg, and a good portion of the modern Horde has Bleeding Hollow heritage.

Some people are saying that its alternate universe or something due to time travel, but really it just seems to be lazy writing.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:13 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:14 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It's because Orcs are dumb and have a culture based around dumb meatheaded jockness.
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:46 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
Yep. I had hope for this too. Certain orc leaders I expected it, blackband, bladefist, deadeye, but I at least expected a couple to come around and be allies to a bigger threat.
It doesn't give me much hope for grom...
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:47 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Pretty much, Danath even respected Kilrogg, and a good portion of the modern Horde has Bleeding Hollow heritage.

Some people are saying that its alternate universe or something due to time travel, but really it just seems to be lazy writing.
If I had any say in it, the BlizzCon Q&A would have gone more like this:

Fan: "Blizzard, how is this set up even possible? You've always told us through the Bronze Dragonflight that if even a single detail of the past were to be thrown off-kilter, the whole universe would go horribly wrong. Now you tell us an AU is happening? How?"

Blizzard: "Alright, look: we painted ourselves into a creative corner when we decided to make Garrosh a bad guy and not kill him. We originally wanted him to make a Dark Horde, but we'd already done that. We then considered a Mongrel Horde, in which Garrosh and his remaining orc friends got help from troggs, gnolls, kobolds and centaurs, but that idea was stupid, so it was scrapped. Instead, we found ourselves with literally nothing that we felt at liberty to exploit that would avoid the pitfalls of Pandaria and we didn't want to pull anything else out of our asses... but this happened. We don't have any explanation for this AU, none that you'll accept anyway, so please stop asking us for a good response -we don't have one!

Fan: "Honesty... how refreshing."

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Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Early on I was hoping Ner'zhul's storyline would end with him being defeated, but not killed. Then the Shadowmoon Clan, freed from its forced servitude to the Iron Horde, would ally with the Alliance. Maybe even with a redeemed Ner'zhul still in charge. I thought it'd go a long way to combat the idea of "Orcs are always jerks, with or without demon blood." Instead you could point to the Shadowmoon Clan as an example of future Human-Orc cooperation.

But it seems that most recently, aside from Rulkan's small band of exiles, the entire clan has turned into void-using lunatics.
That's what I was hoping for too. If Ner'zhul manages to turn himself around and reconcile with Rulkan and her bunch I might be tempted to forgive Blizzard for ruining Garrosh and the Thunderlords.

"Might" being the operative word.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:48 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Also some people think Warlords is an advertisement for the WoW movie which would make sense.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 07-01-2014 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:53 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Blizzard is aware of these changes. It's possible the time travel altered some things even further.
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:42 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
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Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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Old 07-08-2014, 06:07 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:51 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
I'm pretty sure it was made abundantly clear that Garrosh created a parallel timeline. The trouble is the explanations made no mention of how it was possible to do so; we were basically told that there is one timeline and one alone, and that one unplanned hiccup would lead the world to ruin. Garrosh going back in time and arranging for the Old Horde to come out different? That's a pretty big change if I've ever seen one. Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
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Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
That... is what they said. In War Crimes, Kairoz explicitly uses the Vision of Time, created using the Timeless Isle's Epoch Stones, to create an alternate Draenor and place himself and Garrosh in it. Also, in-game, Kairoz implies (to Wrathion) that the Isle's power, if harnessed, could be used to create worlds.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:34 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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That... is what they said. In War Crimes, Kairoz explicitly uses the Vision of Time, created using the Timeless Isle's Epoch Stones, to create an alternate Draenor and place himself and Garrosh in it. Also, in-game, Kairoz implies (to Wrathion) that the Isle's power, if harnessed, could be used to create worlds.
I concede the point. It's just a shame that it had to be done in a book, one that most people will never read. The closest thing I have is a copy of The Shattering: Preclude to Cataclysm, and documentation on the book's plot has left little details readily available.

That said, I'm glad we actually have an explanation on the record.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:37 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I'm pretty sure it was made abundantly clear that Garrosh created a parallel timeline. The trouble is the explanations made no mention of how it was possible to do so; we were basically told that there is one timeline and one alone, and that one unplanned hiccup would lead the world to ruin. Garrosh going back in time and arranging for the Old Horde to come out different? That's a pretty big change if I've ever seen one. Now, if they had said Kairoz had used his powers and technology from the Timeless Isle to create an alternate timeline, that would be different. The trouble is that no good explanation was offered, and people either refused to accept the truth or got the wrong idea.
But Garrosh creating an alternate timeline would not have brought Rulkan back to life. If it was just one timeline, and one alone, Garrosh would have already won the moment he escaped in War Crimes. Than there is that whole "alternate timeline Blackmoore" deal in Twilight of the Aspects, which also proves that there isn't one timeline and one alone, or else "King Blackmoore" would never have existed in the first place.

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Old 07-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Last of the Thunderlords Last of the Thunderlords is offline

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But Garrosh creating an alternate timeline would not have brought Rulkan back to life. If it was just one timeline, and one alone, Garrosh would have already won the moment he escaped in War Crimes. Than there is that whole "alternate timeline Blackmoore" deal in Twilight of the Aspects, which also proves that there isn't one timeline and one alone, or else "King Blackmoore" would never have existed in the first place.
Okay, put it this way then: there is one "main", or better yet, one "successful" timeline. We are sent back to ensure Thrall escapes because the orcs are needed to fight the Legion. We are sent back to ensure Medivh opens the Dark Portal because, aside from the above, orcish violence is what ensures the Alliance exists, and the Horde not coming to Azeroth would not mean the Burning Legion didn't get their turn.

And since Arthas' culling of Stratholme denied the Scourge much cannon fodder and his continued existence caused the direct and indirect deaths of two prominent Dreadlord commanders: Mal'Ganis and Tichondrius. So we have to keep him alive and ensure the Scourge has its day, even knowing what that entails.

Also, we know that the Iron Horde Garrosh builds up has been preparing itself for two years. Maybe Rulkan was only dead for a few months when Ner'zhul was contacted by Kil'jaeden. Rise of the Horde didn't even tell us how she died. It's not clear how far back Garrosh went, or what exactly he did in the meantime. We know that somehow, the Shadow Council now exists concurrently with the Stormreaver clan, both under Gul'dan's jurisdiction. We know that the Warsong rule the roost instead of the Blackrock. Apart from that, and a few other technical details, nothing.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:21 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I love everyone still thinks that WoD is just time travel. Rulkan being alive should have been a big hint that this wasn't the past of our Azeroth and Draenor. If it was the past of our timeline, Thrall, the Horde, the Alliance, and quite a few characters would not exist or would be drastically different if that was were changed. Instead, we are able to jump back to this Draenor with no ill effects, no time-wimey shit to deal with. Which can mean only one thing: that it is an alternate universe with some light time-travel for flavoring.
And the Statue of Liberty is still copper colored.
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