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  #26  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:06 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I have no choice here but I have been able to engage enough to keep good grades. The school was pretty accommodating though because I had an online class where the final needed to be taken on campus but they let me take it under the supervision of my supervisor or a library since I live so far away from campus. Purdue doesn't have it but the university of North Dakota has an all online Electrical Engineering degree but I have no faith in that being well regarded by anyone.
I passed the online classes I took, but I had an incredibly difficult time staying focused. Again, a big part of that is because the subject didn't interest me, but these classes apparently have higher dropout rates than normal.

It's hard to feel invested unless you're actually interacting with someone.

I'm not saying they're bad, or anything (and I imagine they'll improve). Merely that I wouldn't yet consider them a panacea.
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:07 PM
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That wouldn't be very productive.
Hence why I responded simply with "".
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:11 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I passed the online classes I took, but I had an incredibly difficult time staying focused. Again, a big part of that is because the subject didn't interest me, but these classes apparently have higher dropout rates than normal.

It's hard to feel invested unless you're actually interacting with someone.

I'm not saying they're bad, or anything (and I imagine they'll improve). Merely that I wouldn't yet consider them a panacea.
Yeah I didn't mean it that way. I wouldn't and can't take anything that is relevant to my degree online. Only the general or elective classes.
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:13 PM
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Heh, that'd be something. Technological advances could make online classes more approachable for the average student. You might get AR to the point where you can create a convincing virtual simulacrum of the classroom and its attendants.

Which of course will be abused in all kinds of hilarious ways.
I definitely advocate for more computers in the classroom. If the computer is the classroom, even better.

I know that you can't send children to online school because going to school is an important part of socialization and many parents need the school to "babysit" their kids if they cannot afford sitters or afterschool activities, but for college-aged adults? There's no reason why we need to care about whether or not they socialize properly.
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:27 PM
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Crackpot theories are more likely to survive in academia than outside of it.
That's not true. What about 'creationism'?

But I think what you describe is a selling point of academia. You put forth ideas and you see what works outside of academia and what doesn't. That's an important process of learning and advancing knowledge. Many practical discoveries, ideologies, and inventions can trace their roots back to academia. Do you think that Reaganomics was developed in a vacuum? Or Neo-Conservative economics? No. There were think tanks tied to academia. Republicans were able to take such crackpot academic ideas and turn them into their practice.

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You will find a fair share of anti-capitalism, anti-religion, or anti-military opinions.
Just like you would outside of academia. Shocking, I know. Heaven forbid that people are anything other than pro-capitalism, pro-religion, and pro-military. I can only assume that you live in an incredibly insular "Red State." Please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

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I think there is an aloofness and insularity where ideas can form about foreign policy that get service men and women killed or ideas about economics that destroy business.
Do you have any examples? Are you speculating based on what you think you know about about economics and political science at the upper education level?

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I don't particularly consider it enlightenment but more like a cult.
If you think that academia is a cult, then I would hate for you to discover how many businesses and other professions operate. The world is more cult like than you know.

You should really actually - dare I say - learn something about academia and how it operates if you want to sound this foolish. It's like you are speaking entirely out of your anti-intellectual ass.
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  #31  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:28 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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If you're pro-military, you're a socialist. The united states military is literally socialized peacekeeping.
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  #32  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:30 PM
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If you're pro-military, you're a socialist. The united states military is literally socialized peacekeeping.
Shhh... Don't speak such obvious ideas to conservatives. You'll scare them away.
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  #33  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:33 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Disband the military and use that money to forgive all student debt? Personally, I would also double or triple faculty salary, but only the ones who promote socialist views. Money for literal ivory towers. Money for research that will make ivory a viable building material. Money for research that leads to economic theories that promote the trade and profitablility of ivory. Money to research the growing unrest among the elephants. Reinstate the military in order to protect us during the Elephant Uprising and to fight the Great Tusk Wars I-IV
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  #34  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:42 PM
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That's actually true. If PJ applied her same criteria of cutting spending to create further efficiency to the military, that would certainly free up a lot more money for the US in other areas while also improving the TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WASTE in military spending that puts upper education to shame.

As posted by a Christian ethicist and seminary professor I know:
The Tragedy of the American Military
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  #35  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:45 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Jesus Christ you need to calm down. I am sorry I offended you so much.
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  #36  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:54 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Soo... On a serious note...

Professors need to stop getting kickbacks, courses need to be standardized, preferably made by people NOT teaching, more hands on experience should be applied, many of the "liberal arts" courses should be removed as higher education options and taught at smaller degrees in k-12, and branch outs made available via hobbies and books. Of course, to do so, one would have to go and make libraries and more books ready and available digitally.
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:01 PM
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Soo... On a serious note...

Professors need to stop getting kickbacks, courses need to be standardized, preferably made by people NOT teaching, more hands on experience should be applied, many of the "liberal arts" courses should be removed as higher education options and taught at smaller degrees in k-12, and branch outs made available via hobbies and books. Of course, to do so, one would have to go and make libraries and more books ready and available digitally.
La mort de l'Université. This idea basically kills the greatest strengths of the university system, making it utterly unappealing for most students and professors but a haven for bureaucrats and administrators. Great...
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  #38  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Soo... On a serious note...

Professors need to stop getting kickbacks, courses need to be standardized, preferably made by people NOT teaching, more hands on experience should be applied, many of the "liberal arts" courses should be removed as higher education options and taught at smaller degrees in k-12, and branch outs made available via hobbies and books. Of course, to do so, one would have to go and make libraries and more books ready and available digitally.
I think a lot of it is antiquated especially with the advances in technology. A lot of liberal arts and humanities offer material that can be learned online. There are actually a lot of different ways to learn and more diverse methods of learning can only serve society better.
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  #39  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:08 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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La mort de l'Université. This idea basically kills the greatest strengths of the university system, making it utterly unappealing for most students and professors but a haven for bureaucrats and administrators. Great...
I think the internet and wide spread availability of books killed the greatest strength of the university system.

By providing too much of an appeal for professors (and even in some cases, students), we move from teaching and expanding young minds into "Well, only the best of the best can go here (and by that, we mean the rich and ohh yeah that money)".

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I think a lot of it is antiquated especially with the advances in technology. A lot of liberal arts and humanities offer material that can be learned online. There are actually a lot of different ways to learn and more diverse methods of learning can only serve society better.
Which I think needs to be more and more accepted, but the death of Universities must also bring with it the death of the Diploma. I think most people would fine more use of, say, specialized certifications (Cisco, MCSE, ect) than a "Computer Sciences" degree.
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  #40  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:10 PM
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I think a lot of it is antiquated especially with the advances in technology. A lot of liberal arts and humanities offer material that can be learned online. There are actually a lot of different ways to learn and more diverse methods of learning can only serve society better.
Isn't the same true for the maths and sciences? Why are you gunning after the liberal arts and humanities here? The great lab expenses of the sciences do not come into play for most until you reach the graduate level. So most undergrads in the sciences are learning primarily from textbook.

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Some universities actually give preferential treatment to legacy students so it is blatant nepotism.
I'm sure many of your favorite conservative politicians were also recipients of such 'beneficent nepotism.' I'm not a fan of it either, but it's meant to encourage a likelier cash flow into the university by alumni.

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I think the internet and wide spread availability of books killed the greatest strength of the university system.
The Internet also created the idea that everyone's an expert because "they read it on the Internet" on some half-baked website.

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By providing too much of an appeal for professors (and even in some cases, students), we move from teaching and expanding young minds into "Well, only the best of the best can go here (and by that, we mean the rich and ohh yeah that money)".
I'm worried that your proposal here then does not so much encourage the flourishing of expanded minds that are driven to excel but of mediocrity.

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Which I think needs to be more and more accepted, but the death of Universities must also bring with it the death of the Diploma. I think most people would fine more use of, say, specialized certifications (Cisco, MCSE, ect) than a "Computer Sciences" degree.
That depends on what you use your computer science degree towards, does it not? If most would benefit from specialized certifications, then why are we telling such people to get a degree in Computer Sciences? Why is it a degree to begin with?

Last edited by Genesis; 02-09-2015 at 07:19 PM..
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  #41  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:10 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
I think the internet and wide spread availability of books killed the greatest strength of the university system.

By providing too much of an appeal for professors (and even in some cases, students), we move from teaching and expanding young minds into "Well, only the best of the best can go here (and by that, we mean the rich and ohh yeah that money)".
Some universities actually give preferential treatment to legacy students so it is blatant nepotism.
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  #42  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:19 PM
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For the record: Here is what I feel is a major problem of universities - Administration Bloat.

Another issue is the "adjunct problem," which affects both academics and the quality of education alike.
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  #43  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:37 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Some universities actually give preferential treatment to legacy students so it is blatant nepotism.
1%-ers and trust fund kids are the ones who benefit from this, so I have no problem with it going away. Still, you can't miss the obvious economic incentive that universities have for doing this.

In any case, what specific instances of nepotism/preferential treatment are you referencing?
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  #44  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:50 PM
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How would this affect privately funded schools?
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  #45  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:53 PM
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How would this affect privately funded schools?
That's the thing. It's not just a public school problem.
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  #46  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:54 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Isn't the same true for the maths and sciences? Why are you gunning after the liberal arts and humanities here? The great lab expenses of the sciences do not come into play for most until you reach the graduate level. So most undergrads in the sciences are learning primarily from textbook.
While I can't speak for Pajamasalad, students often fail to learn much from humanities departments. I've met UCLA graduates—with English degrees—who will struggle to write a single coherent sentence.

I'm not speaking as a hard science graduate, either. I got a BA in history and an MA in international studies. I've seen firsthand how poorly these are sometimes run. Yes, there are exceptions, but I think there's at least some degree of widespread institutional rot across the system.

Some of this stems from the fact that colleges have to lower their standards for students who didn't learn basic reading/writing/math skills in high school. The intellectual impoverishment of the K-12 system is a separate issue, but one that does affect higher education.
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  #47  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't want to make learning the liberal arts and humanities illegal. I just don't want them to be part of an engineering degree that increases the expense and time to complete the degree. I am skeptical of the value as a public investment but I didn't say that previously. There are just other ways to learn that should be encouraged.

Funneling everyone through universities is only going to funnel a lot of financial and time resources through a very bureaucratic system that doesn't work for everyone. The inflexibility and lack of choice is going to decrease an incentive for quality and many people that would have succeeded in other environments will be denied that opportunity. Some people would have been better off with on the job training or vocational school at 18. The monetary cost is obvious but the time cost is often overlooked.
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  #48  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:05 PM
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While I can't speak for Pajamasalad, students often fail to learn much from humanities departments. I've met UCLA graduates—with English degrees—who will struggle to write a single coherent sentence.

I'm not speaking as a hard science graduate, either. I got a BA in history and an MA in international studies. I've seen firsthand how poorly these are sometimes run. Yes, there are exceptions, but I think there's at least some degree of widespread institutional rot across the system.

Some of this stems from the fact that colleges have to lower their standards for students who didn't learn basic reading/writing/math skills in high school. The intellectual impoverishment of the K-12 system is a separate issue, but one that does affect higher education.
I agree that basic writing skills have gone down the drain. As you say, it's also a problem that stems from issues in our K-12 system.

I see writing problems at the masters level as well, though in the context of people training to become clergy. (I could go on a MASSIVE rant regarding the changing face of ministry education.) Why do I have to explain to students what a thesis statement is? Or how to organize a basic paper? Or when and why they should make citations?

I'm certainly worried about a trend in anti-intellectualism that's rampant in certain wings of both conservative and liberal circles that is quite possibly exacerbating the problem of turning universities into a breeding ground for educational mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I don't want to make learning the liberal arts and humanities illegal. I just don't want them to be part of an engineering degree that increases the expense and time to complete the degree. I am skeptical of the value as a public investment but I didn't say that previously. There are just other ways to learn that should be encouraged.

Funneling everyone through universities is only going to funnel a lot of financial and time resources through a very bureaucratic system that doesn't work for everyone. The inflexibility and lack of choice is going to decrease an incentive for quality and many people that would have succeeded in other environments will be denied that opportunity. Some people would have been better off with on the job training or vocational school at 18. The monetary cost is obvious but the time cost is often overlooked.
This is where I would agree that universities should not die, but there should be further educational alternatives that exist apart from the university system that could include vocational schools. I am partial to the Gymnasium system of primary school education.

Last edited by Genesis; 02-09-2015 at 08:10 PM..
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  #49  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:17 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Less Marxist groupthink and Progressive Stacks, and more practical educations that net jobs rather than horrific debts. For example: students getting Majors in Philosophy or Communications, and than complaining that they can't find a decent paying job and are in drowning debt due to government loans and overpriced classes.

Also, the only reason people take Liberal Arts and Humanities, is to meet college girls.
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  #50  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:20 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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This is where I would agree that universities should not die, but there should be further educational alternatives that exist apart from the university system that could include vocational schools. I am partial to the Gymnasium system of primary school education.
When we don't agree you don't have to hate on me you know.
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