Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-17-2014, 12:33 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,205

Default The Blood/High Elf Thread 1

A general purpose thread for the discussion of blood and high elves. Favorite blood elves? Organizations? What's good about their story? What isn't? What would you like to see developed further?

Some of our recent discussions had me thinking that blood/high elves are in a fairly enviable position in that they have a well-developed society with depth that's not found in a number of other races. What do I mean? Think about how many blood/high elf organizations, government branches, or paramilitary groups we know.

* The Convocation of Silvermoon
* The Farstriders
* The Blood Knights
* The Magisters
* The Sunreavers (and Onslaught)
* The Silver Covenant
* The Reliquary
* The Sunfury
* The Scryers
* The Shattered Sun Offensive
* The Spell Breakers (though nigh extinct)

That's quite a lot in comparison with other races. Not only that, we also frequently see these various factions working together or separately. Each has its own identity and mission. We know important characters attached to each and how they interconnect. It all adds tremendous depth to their society.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-17-2014, 01:29 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
* The Convocation of Silvermoon
* The Farstriders
* The Blood Knights
* The Magisters
* The Sunreavers (and Onslaught)
* The Silver Covenant
* The Reliquary
* The Sunfury
* The Scryers
* The Shattered Sun Offensive
* The Spell Breakers (though nigh extinct)
If you list them for each race you will find many of the others do to, thing is with Blood Elves, they like to make a show of it, give them selves a name or a show.

Also, I would slim that down a bit.

* The Convocation of Silvermoon - The Magisters (Government)
* The Farstriders
* The Blood Knights
* The Sunreavers
* The Reliquary
* The Sunfury (Dead)
* The Scryers (Alive but only loosely aligned to silvermoon)
* The Shattered Sun Offensive (Dead)
* The Spell Breakers (though nigh extinct) (Near dead, hopeful revival)

* The Silver Covenant (High Elf)

So if you look at it now, there really isn't that many.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-17-2014, 01:32 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,205

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
If you list them for each race you will find many of the others do to, thing is with Blood Elves, they like to make a show of it, give them selves a name or a show.

Also, I would slim that down a bit.

* The Convocation of Silvermoon - The Magisters (Government)
* The Farstriders
* The Blood Knights
* The Sunreavers
* The Reliquary
* The Sunfury (Dead)
* The Scryers (Alive but only loosely aligned to silvermoon)
* The Shattered Sun Offensive (Dead)
* The Spell Breakers (though nigh extinct) (Near dead, hopeful revival)

* The Silver Covenant (High Elf)

So if you look at it now, there really isn't that many.
The Sunfury realigned with Silvermoon. It's mentioned in the "In the Shadow of the Sun" short story. The Shattered Sun Offensive may be defunct, but it was still a major cooperative effort that involved the blood elves. Overall, it's still far better than your pessimism suggests.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-17-2014, 01:42 AM
Sagara Sagara is offline

Arch-Druid
Sagara's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,269
BattleTag: Sagara#2842

Default

Just because debate is fun, I'd argue that this enviability becomes a liability at some point.

Consider that players, and in all hope, the story team tries to spread the lore love around between races. At some point, you can't just keep adding things to the Blood Elves, and you need to build something else (*coughanyracecough*).

In short, at some point this font of elven lore will have to slow down or stop alltogheter. While you could state that we've had our time in the sun and shouldn't be envious of other races getting their due (which is correct, all in all), I'd like to point back to the very long list of organisation, and ask precisely how much do we know about all of these organisations.

The Sunreavers and Silver Covenant got some love this time around, and I personally feel *very* lucky to get some Blood Knight love coming up. Because I would have never expected lore to come back to them, not with the gazillion other races and organisations in warcraft.

But while I got handed the good end of the stick, I can't help but think about, for example, the magister and farstrider fans (supposedly the two biggest influences on Elven society), because it's very likely that an elven lore drought is on the horizon, and those fans will never get their due, all of that because we spent an inordinate amount of time making up new organisations on the fly.

In short, I think you could say elves got a lot of worldbuilding, but paid for it by not acting much on it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-17-2014, 02:55 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagara View Post
Just because debate is fun, I'd argue that this enviability becomes a liability at some point.

Consider that players, and in all hope, the story team tries to spread the lore love around between races. At some point, you can't just keep adding things to the Blood Elves, and you need to build something else (*coughanyracecough*).

In short, at some point this font of elven lore will have to slow down or stop alltogheter. While you could state that we've had our time in the sun and shouldn't be envious of other races getting their due (which is correct, all in all), I'd like to point back to the very long list of organisation, and ask precisely how much do we know about all of these organisations.

The Sunreavers and Silver Covenant got some love this time around, and I personally feel *very* lucky to get some Blood Knight love coming up. Because I would have never expected lore to come back to them, not with the gazillion other races and organisations in warcraft.

But while I got handed the good end of the stick, I can't help but think about, for example, the magister and farstrider fans (supposedly the two biggest influences on Elven society), because it's very likely that an elven lore drought is on the horizon, and those fans will never get their due, all of that because we spent an inordinate amount of time making up new organisations on the fly.

In short, I think you could say elves got a lot of worldbuilding, but paid for it by not acting much on it.
You have a valid point, and this is the big buggering bone that gets the Elf community, yes, we were the guys who built the world and made it what it is today, our history is perhaps the richest, most in depth and and detailed but, it is several thousand years old.

Farstriders, Magisters AND priests (WHO?) these guys have a big place in Blood Elven society. But what is it they do? Who are they, why, what where when. You can hunt through quest text, lore books and Wowwiki all you want but to know anything about them post fall is... Well, impossible.

Elf ages, how the society works (Are we still totalitarianism?), effect of the sunwell, the changes in culture, the impact of war, the social and economic changes, the Belf's place in the horde ectect. None of this is made clear, it is clear for every other race! We are in essence stuck in BC, with a few hints of "You have magic" "You can fight in the Horde's war" "You're leader likes troll cock now".

Yes! Thunder Isle was lore, but It WAS NOT progression, in fact it just made it all the most frustrating because the reasoning was lose at best. We got to see Loth running around and biting some ankles, Great! love it.

Humans, Orcs they both get progression and update every patch, but the race that is played most on the horde is about 5 years behind.

/ends moaning.

But you are right I think, the elf's time is over, we should simply give it up for dead.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:00 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Dawnfeld's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Humans, Orcs they both get progression and update every patch, but the race that is played most on the horde is about 5 years behind.
Humans have had any progression? They've had a presence alright, but if you're saying the blood elves have had no progression, then the humans have only had regression. Humans have appeared all over, in the wrong places, with no actual development, while their own lands and people are ignored and rot.

The blood elves have actually had a great deal of development and progression though, especially in Mists of Pandaria. In fact, they've probably had the best development of all the playable races.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:04 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnfeld View Post
Humans have had any progression? They've had a presence alright, but if you're saying the blood elves have had no progression, then the humans have only had regression. Humans have appeared all over, in the wrong places, with no actual development, while their own lands and people are ignored and rot.

The blood elves have actually had a great deal of development and progression though, especially in Mists of Pandaria. In fact, they've probably had the best development of all the playable races.
Completely disagree.

If you can evidence your point please do, as I cannot see your logic in the slightest.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:14 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Dawnfeld's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Completely disagree.

If you can evidence your point please do, as I cannot see your logic in the slightest.
Then we'll just be in disagreement. It all comes down to our favorite races and how we view them. I personally feel the blood elves' appearances over the different expansions have come with a lot of development, including the Sunreaver stuff, the Reliquary, and the Lor'themar development, while the humans have been sticking their noses in matters that shouldn't involve them. This has the side effect of letting their own lore rot, while also ruining stuff for the races whose business they stick their nose into. You, obviously, feel differently.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:15 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,205

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Completely disagree.

If you can evidence your point please do, as I cannot see your logic in the slightest.
* Rogue blood elves aiding Garrosh against the Alliance
* Blood elves negotiating with Varian Wrynn about rejoining the Alliance.
* Blood elves kicked out of Dalaran. Some blood elves are still imprisoned.
* Blood elves are pushed back towards the Horde.
* Lor'themar wants the blood elves to strengthen their position in case the Horde falls apart.
* The blood elves begin to take a more pro-active stance in the Horde as opposed to playing the part of pawns (see "In the Shadow of the Sun").

Yeah, that's fairly substantial as far as lore goes, since it's about the blood elves maneuvering around and shaping the geo-political landscape for the two factions.

What actually advanced for humans and their story? Anduin becomes more annoying and Varian grates the nerves of non-human racial players as they are told how great both are.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:16 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnfeld View Post
Then we'll just be in disagreement. It all comes down to our favorite races and how we view them. I personally feel the blood elves' appearances over the different expansions have come with a lot of development, including the Sunreaver stuff, the Reliquary, and the Lor'themar development, while the humans have been sticking their noses in matters that shouldn't involve them. This has the side effect of letting their own lore rot, while also ruining stuff for the races whose business they stick their nose into. You, obviously, feel differently.
No! Agree in respect of the rotting part. But I disagree with the point that Blood Elves have progressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
* Rogue blood elves aiding Garrosh against the Alliance
* Blood elves negotiating with Varian Wrynn about rejoining the Alliance.
* Blood elves kicked out of Dalaran. Some blood elves are still imprisoned.
* Blood elves are pushed back towards the Horde.
* Lor'themar wants the blood elves to strengthen their position in case the Horde falls apart.
* The blood elves begin to take a more pro-active stance in the Horde as opposed to playing the part of pawns (see "In the Shadow of the Sun").

Yeah, that's fairly substantial as far as lore goes, since it's about the blood elves maneuvering around and shaping the geo-political landscape for the two factions.

What actually advanced for humans and their story? Anduin becomes more annoying and Varian grates the nerves of non-human racial players as they are told how great both are.
Hm, valid points.

Ones I had not discounted when I wrote my previous rant.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore


Last edited by belorealah; 04-17-2014 at 03:19 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:17 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,205

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
No! Agree in respect of the rotting part. But I disagree with the point that Blood Elves have progressed.
By any reasonable standard, especially in comparison with most other races, they have. You may have wanted more, but you got more than you realized.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:19 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Dawnfeld's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
No! Agree in respect of the rotting part. But I disagree with the point that Blood Elves have progressed.
Ah, alright. My mistake. We'll continue to respectfully disagree on the second point though
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:40 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnfeld View Post
Ah, alright. My mistake. We'll continue to respectfully disagree on the second point though
Thats cool! I approve of respectful disagreement.

I will admit, I don't play humans, or orcs. Simply because what I see, there is TOO much of them already. Stormwind has had more updates than most places, (Second to org) you have NPC walking the streets, you have beautiful towns and houses, you have updated NPC speech often enough, you have a visible and proactive High King that thought the story-line is bad, it is still one. You see Him forming alliances, building bridges and burning them. You have your Wise beyond his years boy priest who is fanning the flames. you have Jaina proudmoore bitching about, and you have Dalaran going full alliance (Guys, you get your own new, shiny city). You also see how the political situation is, who is leading, why they are leading.

DAMN You even know how your characters age!!!!, think, speak, do, feel. Who is in charge, how they do it ect.

Now, Its amusing, because I have roleplayed Blood Elf for 4 years, played it pve from the mid BC. I have had the same, near same rant from the end of cata, the Blood Elf community that I speak to, all of them are frustrated, they all liked Thunder Isle, but agree that it wasn't quite enough.

Everyone else looks to the Blood Elf Community and tells them to shut up. Which, in part is justified, and I understand. Yet, I don't even want big sweeping gestures of great epic lore declaring Blood Elves masters of the universe. (They totally should be). I would just like to know some of the little bits and see that there is some progression and change in silvermoon, and see what,why,when,how the city is working.

Same goes for Nelfs, Draenei, worgan, All of those need it. Well, not the Draenei with WOD.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:44 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

Guru of Gilneas
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,205

Default

Then take the time in this thread to rejoice about what is known and lament about what is not.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-17-2014, 03:54 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

High Elves should die out, Blood Elves should retreat back as they have sustained heavy losses, (And were not of high population and fighting in war for 15 years).

We should then get an update of them trying to rebuild, repopulate, and learn from past mistakes, showing the Horde having some kind of ambassador office ect in the newly built ruins. Show them training the young elves, show them changes that the sunwell is having on culture and socially.

Then I will be happy and shut up.

Oh! And TELL ME HOW LONG MY CHARACTER LIVES FOR BLIZZARD!

Am I 26 or 1026?

__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-17-2014, 06:01 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

Arch-Druid
Zaelsino's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,708

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
That's quite a lot in comparison with other races. Not only that, we also frequently see these various factions working together or separately. Each has its own identity and mission. We know important characters attached to each and how they interconnect. It all adds tremendous depth to their society.
Yeah, giving a visible "face" to their major organizations has done wonders. Take the Magisters and the Sunreavers; through Rommath and Aethas, I think we have a pretty good idea of how elves of either organization would generally view the other and the sort of membership they'd typically attract. Liadrin and the BKs have admittedly been out of the loop since BC (WoD should remedy this), but Halduron captures my understanding of the Farstriders perfectly, and even Voren'thal had an interesting (if underused) outlook and attitude.

More races could benefit from having their secondary leaders step up like that.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-17-2014, 09:33 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

Elune
Magistrix Verdande's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Xerrath
Posts: 11,081
BattleTag: Malice#2774

Default

I wouldn't mind if the Blood Elves took a slight step back, in order to allow the other races to be a bit more prominent.

It is rather heartfelling that Alliance storylines tend to focus on humans, and when the spotlight finally falls onto another race, it's the unplayable high elves.

I'd say all the Horde races are rather prominent throughout the expansions (none so much as the Orcs and the Blood Elves, but still). The Alliance seem quite content with their Humans.

Would be nice to grind rep for a faction of trolls or tauren, though, rather than Axebane Defensive 20.0.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-17-2014, 09:35 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I wouldn't mind if the Blood Elves took a slight step back, in order to allow the other races to be a bit more prominent.

It is rather heartfelling that Alliance storylines tend to focus on humans, and when the spotlight finally falls onto another race, it's the unplayable high elves.

I'd say all the Horde races are rather prominent throughout the expansions (none so much as the Orcs and the Blood Elves, but still). The Alliance seem quite content with their Humans.

Would be nice to grind rep for a faction of trolls or tauren, though, rather than Axebane Defensive 20.0.
I agree!

though, I would like to have "They step back because of X and X" Not just vanish from sight never to be heard from again.

As said above, don't want huge plots of epicyepic. Simply to know whats happening in Silvermoon.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-17-2014, 10:37 AM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Dawnfeld's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
High Elves should die out, Blood Elves should retreat back as they have sustained heavy losses, (And were not of high population and fighting in war for 15 years).

We should then get an update of them trying to rebuild, repopulate, and learn from past mistakes, showing the Horde having some kind of ambassador office ect in the newly built ruins. Show them training the young elves, show them changes that the sunwell is having on culture and socially.

Then I will be happy and shut up.

Oh! And TELL ME HOW LONG MY CHARACTER LIVES FOR BLIZZARD!

Am I 26 or 1026?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
I agree!

though, I would like to have "They step back because of X and X" Not just vanish from sight never to be heard from again.

As said above, don't want huge plots of epicyepic. Simply to know whats happening in Silvermoon.
This is a problem plaguing many races, even humans. We never see any of the races rebuild. Humans especially seem to leave their lands and kingdoms in constant neglect.

Blizzard simply doesn't want to focus on it, because they want new content to be in new lands, after the failure that was Cataclysm.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-17-2014, 10:47 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnfeld View Post
This is a problem plaguing many races, even humans. We never see any of the races rebuild. Humans especially seem to leave their lands and kingdoms in constant neglect.

Blizzard simply doesn't want to focus on it, because they want new content to be in new lands, after the failure that was Cataclysm.

I know! I know!

But, but as a fanboy I require it for my favored race and no other.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-20-2014, 03:44 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

Eternal Watcher
Yaskaleh's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The heart of Scania
Posts: 18,625
BattleTag: Yaskaleh#1817

Default

This thread has been corrupted by Bloodelfitis. It must be purged in fire and covered in many layers of salt for it to have any chance of being purified. Any sane high elf individual or organisation would avoid this corrupted place like the plague.
__________________

Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-20-2014, 04:28 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

Arch-Druid
belorealah's Avatar
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,165
BattleTag: toffeeatoms#2825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
This thread has been corrupted by Bloodelfitis. It must be purged in fire and covered in many layers of salt for it to have any chance of being purified. Any sane high elf individual or organisation would avoid this corrupted place like the plague.
*yawns*

You're boring me.
__________________
Increasingly jaded and whiny with wow lore

Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-20-2014, 04:39 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

Eternal Watcher
Yaskaleh's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The heart of Scania
Posts: 18,625
BattleTag: Yaskaleh#1817

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
*yawns*

You're boring me.
You bored me years ago!
__________________

Say no to genocide!
Save the Nightborne!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-20-2014, 05:57 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

Arch-Druid
Yakitori's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,074

Default

Ladies, ladies. You're both pretty, we all know how this discussion is going to go, and neither side is going to change their mind without one of you being hacked. Can we just skip to the part where you agree to disagree so that we can avoid even more deceased equine abuse than what normally goes on around here? Can this not be the next Lordaeron?

I'm asking for some sanity from you both.
__________________
Disgruntled Forsaken Stable Master
"Blacker than a moonless night, hotter and more bitter than hell itself... That is coffee."
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-20-2014, 10:49 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
and you have Dalaran going full alliance (Guys, you get your own new, shiny city).
That's a bit misleading. Dalaran may be Alliance in lore, but in-game it's still Wrath-era neutral. While I'm happy that Dalaran has finally come home to the Alliance, let's not pretend that Alliance players now have a, "new, shiny city."

As for Blood/High Elves: I'm sick of Blood Elves. They can disappear into the background for an expansion or two.

With High Elves, I'd rather they had never been made a force to begin with. But since they are, I'd hope to see them somehow, someway get their population numbers up to being a viable race again. In WoW 2 I'd love to take part in the Silver Crusade to liberate Quel'thalas from the fel-sucking deviants that currently occupy it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
duplicate thread, eastern kingdoms, never trust an elf

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.