Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-05-2015, 01:12 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default Jungle Troll Deconstruction Extravaganza

So as everyone none of you knows, I've been working on Jungle Trolls for a while now. I've modded Wc3 for over a decade, and my penultimate goal is a playable, compatible "5th-Race Addition" to the game of TFT... Ultimately with a campaign to go along with it. (Much of the pertinent information (though somewhat outdated) can be found in my signature)

That's not really important to you guys. What is important, and is something I need your help on, is Building some underlying Lore concepts that I can use & 'Deconstructing' them to something realistic.

This is in part due to my desire to create a cohesive story, set post-TFT, that deals with the Trolls and their ascension to an Empire. However, I've never seen a campaign take it "from the Trolls' viewpoint" before, so I'm trying hard not to make this a campaign of weed-smoking hippies throwing spears & doing voodoo. I believe the Trolls have a vibrant & manifold culture with spiritual, tribal, combat-ical, hierarchical, cultural, and other-al facets, and I wanna represent that as best (plausibly & interestingly) as I can.

(Again, this is set "post-TFT", "pre-/concurrent-with-(Vanilla)-WoW", so I'm not worried about trying to "explain" how there are Troll Mages or Warlocks or what-have-you)

Some questions to consider (I have my ideas & preferences on the below, but I'll abstain at first):
  • Troll Regeneration! How well does it work, under what circumstances, and with what utility? From where does this power originate? How would a society develop that featured ostensibly-infinitely-regenerable-beings? (this thread on regeneration is a good start, but not complete IMO), and this thread also adds something)
  • Troll Leadership! First it's like "tribal warlords" then it's like "tribal shamans" and then "witch doctors" and where do "shadow hunters" fit in this? C'mon, give me some consistency! (this thread on leadership was a bit interesting but unfulfilling)
  • Troll Mysticism! So we've got a definite bias/angle of "spiritualism" (belief that all matter has a 'soul' which can be discussed/bargained/ridden with; primary point of ritual & incancations & somatic & material components to spells is to converse/appease/convince/coerce these spirits to do things)... But just as much a strong "alchemical" bent (with potions, brews, elixirs.... witch doctors & "headshrinkers" (?) and "medicine men (mon)" (?)... ). Which is which? Are they differentiable, or are they two parts of the same thing? If separable, which takes which kind of 'position' in society (i.e. is alchemy an every-troll-man thing, with spiritualism being a sort of "higher echelon"/"years of study"/"lifestyle choice" dealie? Or vice versa? What kind of problems do they solve?
  • Troll Mysticism: Concepts! (1st, Quick Question for you WoW-ites: Is there ever any mention of what exactly "Voodoo" is? What about the words "Tiki", "Mojo", or "Juju"? If not, are these common to your respective cultures, or common to something you would expect to see in a given faction such as this?) I'm looking for a bit of fleshing out of the generic, nameless "spiritualism", as well. At one point I had a nice little system of 4 named "styles" of spiritualism/alchemy, each covering a sort of "quadrant" (alignment-chart-style) of Troll magicks. I've since effectively discarded it (for some good reasons), but some relics remain, & I ponder their efficacy.
    TL;DR, I'd like some reasonably good way to categorize/define/systematize/codify Trollish magicks.
  • Troll Mythology! What is said about the Troll's Loa that they worship and where they came from? I am aware that certain 'spiritually ascended' individuals can become regarded as Loa to the Trolls; how strong of a facet is this in WoW, would you say? How ancient are the Loa; are they all of the same antiquity? Can one pick random attributes & assign Loa to them arbitrarily? Etc.
  • Troll Architecture! What could be said about Troll architecture? At once I see two strong 'schools of thought'; the "ancient Mesoamerican style" (primarily stone, ornamental wood, giant ziggurats & temples, altars, etc), and the "primal/tribal degenerate style" (primarily wood, mostly hollowed logs, flimsy & insecure, draped with ritualistic symbols & paraphernalia , etc). I personally prefer & would love to see more of the former, but the latter is not only easier/more reliable to have done, but also tends to look more fitting in the game. A mixture of both would be... Interesting. (NOTE: This question is coming both from a "game mod efficacy" angle and from a "storyline/thematic efficacy" angle. The former is determined somewhat by the availability of existing resources & the kindness of fellow artistically-inclined modders).
  • Troll Linguistics! This is especially important for a campaign/sound-sets that I might wish to record voices for & concurrently have subtitles for... Part of what I love about the Trolls is the strong Jamaican-themed accent. It's cool, mon. But I recognize dat uh pau-ruh-graf fool o de s'trongest i'land'r acc-ent weell be enuff to de-ter de 'ardiest o' readahs. Mon.
    So what's the balance? How strong of a spoken accent should be showcased (granted, this'd be a grand total of 0 actual Jamaicans doing voices, so it's "as good as I & my wife & friends can get", lol)? And concurrently, in the subtitled campaign or any written version of this, how much is written "in accent"? What about their personal thoughts; do dey t'ink in Jamaican? How does WoW handle this?
  • Probably more to come. Stay Tuned!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, you considerate & intelligent people, you. : P
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/

Last edited by Khyrberos; 01-09-2015 at 02:00 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-05-2015, 01:23 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,861

Default

Troll regeneration is a boon they got from some Loa, iirc.

"True trolls" have shadow hunter leaders. Shamans, witch doctors and less spiritual leaders (warlords) are the kind of leaders trolls had to resort to due to forgetting their culture/heritage, afaik.

Some loa predate trolls. Due to the trolls calling many spiritual beings, like Ancients, wisps or some of their ancestors, loa, not all loa are of the same antiquity nor are they all the same kind of being. Bwonsamdi, despite having appeared in the form of a troll, is older than the species, so appearances can be missleading.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-07-2015, 01:20 AM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

Eternal
AndyJP's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 2021
Posts: 4,508

Default

I'm not smart enough to know the answers to any of those and will not pretend to, but I anxiously await the chance to try the WC3 campaign.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:31 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

Elune
neoshadow's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 11,395

Default

the game keeps making a weird noise, I hear it in wowcrendors playthough too, and I cant figure out what the noise is.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Neocat's got it all figured out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
I love you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakurako View Post
based neokitty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post

Shape up, Neocat. Fuck's sake.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:34 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

Master Worldbuilder
Anansi's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Dying World
Posts: 18,079

Orb of Lightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoshadow View Post
the game keeps making a weird noise, I hear it in wowcrendors playthough too, and I cant figure out what the noise is.
I like your new avatar.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:57 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 12,052
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

So here's a fun little tidbit which is barely related to the topic.

During a quest in Nagrand in which you bless the spirits of shadow hunters using a fetish of Bwonsamdi, the Loa is referred to as "The Lord of the Grave".
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:56 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
So here's a fun little tidbit which is barely related to the topic.

During a quest in Nagrand in which you bless the spirits of shadow hunters using a fetish of Bwonsamdi, the Loa is referred to as "The Lord of the Grave".
In WoD? o.O Gods someone in blizzard lore screwed the pooch on that slip up.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:00 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 12,052
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
In WoD? o.O Gods someone in blizzard lore screwed the pooch on that slip up.
Seems the error may have been mine, actually. It was a fetish of Samedi, not Bwonsamdi.

Curious that both have similar domains and names, but eh.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:03 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,861

Default

Isn't Bwon supposed to be the Azerothian version of Samedi? It's weird that Azeroth has both.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:17 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Seems the error may have been mine, actually. It was a fetish of Samedi, not Bwonsamdi.

Curious that both have similar domains and names, but eh.
Huh. Still though, that is kind of a weird find. Why would the orcs, or ogres for that matter, have a Lord of the Grave? The orcs are ancestral spirit worshipers and I'm not sure what the ogres worship, if anything. I know the Draenei don't have a pantheon they worship. I wonder who the designers thought the lord of the Grave was supposed to be worshiped by.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:28 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,861

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Huh. Still though, that is kind of a weird find. Why would the orcs, or ogres for that matter, have a Lord of the Grave? The orcs are ancestral spirit worshipers and I'm not sure what the ogres worship, if anything. I know the Draenei don't have a pantheon they worship. I wonder who the designers thought the lord of the Grave was supposed to be worshiped by.
A troll gives you the item and quest. The ones you bless are her companions.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:35 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Darkspear or Zandalari troll? Either way, having a troll hand you the item makes more sense, as long as its not a Draenor troll.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:38 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,861

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Darkspear or Zandalari troll? Either way, having a troll hand you the item makes more sense, as long as its not a Draenor troll.
One of Vol'jin's Shadow Hunters. Still weird that she calls Baron Samedi Samedi instead of Bwonsamdi.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-07-2015, 02:33 PM
handclaw handclaw is offline


handclaw's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,338

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
[*]Troll Architecture! What could be said about Troll architecture? At once I see two strong 'schools of thought'; the "ancient Mesoamerican style" (primarily stone, ornamental wood, giant ziggurats & temples, altars, etc), and the "primal/tribal degenerate style" (primarily wood, mostly hollowed logs, flimsy & insecure, draped with ritualistic symbols & paraphernalia , etc). I personally prefer & would love to see more of the former, but the latter is not only easier/more reliable to have done, but also tends to look more fitting in the game. A mixture of both would be... Interesting. (NOTE: This question is coming both from a "game mod efficacy" angle and from a "storyline/thematic efficacy" angle. The former is determined somewhat by the availability of existing resources & the kindness of fellow artistically-inclined modders).
I shall tackle this one:

So, first off: If I address this from the mod efficency side alone: No question, "primal/tribal degenerate style".

I check from time to time what modeling is done on hive, and from my PoV nowadays there isn't a lot of truely unique modeling done concerning race buildings. So if it must get done, then likely this way.

------

Now, I'm not too keen on the idea as so much more could be done.

One thing that I'd like to add: while WC3 depicted both jungle trolls and forest trolls using "Log Structures", I'd say they fit better to forest trolls properly. And since WoW, they introduced a new building style for the jungle trolls that I simply love:





Sure, they are simple huts, but they fit the jungle trolls so much better in my opinion. And the fun part: they work perfectly for mixing in "ancient Mesoamerican style" elements:





Now, here is the thing: What is your plan again? I quote:

Quote:
This is in part due to my desire to create a cohesive story, set post-TFT, that deals with the Trolls and their ascension to an Empire.
The idea of mixing both sides, more simple "primitive huts" with the more "ancient Mesoamerican style" buildings is perfect for that. On lower tiers, you have more buildings from the primitive side (maybe a pillar here and there, or a statue, trolls clinging to their past glory), with later tiers introducing the more elaborate structures, troll ziggurats and temples, etc., showing the very rise to an empire you are talking about. (heck, the town hall alone could start of as a mere primitive hut and be expanded into a ziggurat on tier 3)

But again, from the modding side that makes it hard to achieve.

Though, I guess I'm telling you nothing new here... : P
__________________


I am handclaw and this is my favorite thread on Scrolls of Lore!... oh wait, nope... Just another bitching thread.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-07-2015, 03:08 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 12,052
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
The idea of mixing both sides, more simple "primitive huts" with the more "ancient Mesoamerican style" buildings is perfect for that. On lower tiers, you have more buildings from the primitive side (maybe a pillar here and there, or a statue, trolls clinging to their past glory), with later tiers introducing the more elaborate structures, troll ziggurats and temples, etc., showing the very rise to an empire you are talking about. (heck, the town hall alone could start of as a mere primitive hut and be expanded into a ziggurat on tier 3)

But again, from the modding side that makes it hard to achieve.

Though, I guess I'm telling you nothing new here... : P
I do so wish Darkspear Hold resembled an actual hold.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-09-2015, 02:34 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Thanks for your time (especially Nazja & Handclaw). : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Troll regeneration is a boon they got from some Loa, iirc.
OK... But what form does it take? How potent is it? Under what circumstances (spiritual or physical?) does it work & not work?
Etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja
"True trolls" have shadow hunter leaders. Shamans, witch doctors and less spiritual leaders (warlords) are the kind of leaders trolls had to resort to due to forgetting their culture/heritage, afaik.
Oh really? That's actually quite interesting; from where did you get that? Was this before, during, or after the whole "Hakkar" thing? Was this more characterized by their ancestral pre-Fall empire-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja
Some loa predate trolls. Due to the trolls calling many spiritual beings, like Ancients, wisps or some of their ancestors, loa, not all loa are of the same antiquity nor are they all the same kind of being. Bwonsamdi, despite having appeared in the form of a troll, is older than the species, so appearances can be missleading.
Interesting, ok. Do we have any clues as to which Loa predate Trolls and which do not? What about the "Primal Loa" (panther/tiger/bat/snake/spider, I believe (though I'll be changing that))?

And certainly they can change their shape, yet is there any evidence that they have/had a particular shape (/form/race)?

~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJP View Post
I'm not smart enough to know the answers to any of those and will not pretend to, but I anxiously await the chance to try the WC3 campaign.
Lol. I don't necessarily need "smart", so much as I need "literate" and "well-reasoned". Like I said, I'm giving myself a bit of "leeway" here (i.e. I don't feel beholden to stick to the "lore" that WoW has brought about, but may draw inspiration from it); as long as everything I make complies with TFT & such, I'll feel good about myself.

So yeah, give me your thoughts.

(Also, thanks for the vote of confidence. I work hard to make something I think is cool, but I'm gratified (& hopeful) that others will like it as well. : )

~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like your new avatar.
I like how topical you are.

: )

~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
So here's a fun little tidbit which is barely related to the topic.

During a quest in Nagrand in which you bless the spirits of shadow hunters using a fetish of Bwonsamdi, the Loa is referred to as "The Lord of the Grave".
Well, it's kinda related. I suppose a good question is "what kind of Loa exist for the Trolls"? Are there only ones for the elements, or do we have some that are more metaphysical (e.g. "Death", "Life", "Love", etc)? Where do the "Primal Loa" (if they can be called such) stem from?

~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
I shall tackle this one:

So, first off: If I address this from the mod efficency side alone: No question, "primal/tribal degenerate style".

I check from time to time what modeling is done on hive, and from my PoV nowadays there isn't a lot of truely unique modeling done concerning race buildings. So if it must get done, then likely this way.
Excellent point, and the point most likely to become the reality; of the extremely few Building models in general, the even smaller number of them that are Trolls are unilaterally "log dwellings". (I think an Uncle Fester put out a sort of mayan stone temple-looking thing, but it's not particularly Trollish (or fitting to in-game for that matter...))

Thing is, I'm OK with this; it's a "worst-case scenario" that I'd be fine with. I actually rather like the Creepy Logs (TM) -style of house for the Jungle Trolls. At least it's better than Wo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handclaw
------

Now, I'm not too keen on the idea as so much more could be done.

One thing that I'd like to add: while WC3 depicted both jungle trolls and forest trolls using "Log Structures", I'd say they fit better to forest trolls properly. And since WoW, they introduced a new building style for the jungle trolls that I simply love:

...

Sure, they are simple huts, but they fit the jungle trolls so much better in my opinion.
Curse you, swaying my opinions with yours. :<

I'll admit, when I first saw them, I didn't particularly like them (as aforementioned, I like the Logs, and I'm not as big a fan of the bright, 'dead palm leaves' color scheme going on there. However, I do like the "parts of a ship" bit & the "stilts" bit... And what you say bears some looking into.

i.e. There are plenty of times in Wc3 where Blizzard got resourceful (translation: lazy) and either re-used resources, re-colored textures (for different Creeps), or simply homogenized stuff. It could very well be argued that Trolls are one of them. In fact, to be fair the only Trollish architecture we witness in all of RoC are those (Forest) Troll log huts (2 kinds) & the Horde's "Burrow" (which in MPQ files is known as the "Troll Burrow" for some reason). Come TFT, we get one more; the Voodoo Lounge (which is, again, made up of Logs & voodoo paraphrenalia).

So... Well, actually now that I bring it up, the TFT Voodoo Lounge is a point against the "Blizzard lazily re-used resources but would've made J.Trolls different". However, your WoW pics are not.

(Then again, I could further argue that in WoW, we see a nation supplanted; the Trolls are not in their native landscape (i.e. steamy jungles of Stranglethorn Vale) and are instead thrust into an entirely alien landscape (harsh, dry wastes of Kalimdor). Sure, they get the ocean-side view (Echo Isles), but they still don't have all the same resources with which to build their homes (i.e. instead of rotting logs & vines & trees & such, they have to use cured wood (e.g. parts of ships) & dry palm leaves to get the job done).

I am unsure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handclaw
And the fun part: they work perfectly for mixing in "ancient Mesoamerican style" elements:

...
Gah! Curse you and your artistic eye! It's true, what you've shown does fit well. I wouldn't mind something like that. (Though to be fair, couldn't that be solved as just an issue of color (scheme)? I.e. Make the "primal/degenerate/tribal architecture" out of the Logs & such (darker), and then color the "advanced/civilization/ancient architecture" fittingly?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handclaw
Now, here is the thing: What is your plan again? I quote:

Quote:
This is in part due to my desire to create a cohesive story, set post-TFT, that deals with the Trolls and their ascension to an Empire.
The idea of mixing both sides, more simple "primitive huts" with the more "ancient Mesoamerican style" buildings is perfect for that. On lower tiers, you have more buildings from the primitive side (maybe a pillar here and there, or a statue, trolls clinging to their past glory), with later tiers introducing the more elaborate structures, troll ziggurats and temples, etc., showing the very rise to an empire you are talking about. (heck, the town hall alone could start of as a mere primitive hut and be expanded into a ziggurat on tier 3)
That's absolutely golden. I'm glad I'm not the only one to think of that. : ) That's exactly what I'd love to do; Tier 1-2 buildings being Logs (TM) on stone foundations, "clinging to past glory"; Tier 2-3 buildings being primarily Stone & fancier & stuff.

I might be stuck with the former (logs logs logs), but what you've described above is a dream we both share. : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handclaw
But again, from the modding side that makes it hard to achieve.

Though, I guess I'm telling you nothing new here... : P
(Lol, you're not. xD)

Well, ah dannae... I've been working with several modelers off & on, trying to convince them to get inspired by these ideas. My success has been... Limited. I have a few buildings, a few others that need major/minor tweaks, etc. I was working with one individual (jigrael/Tarrasque (you remember : )...), who's a great guy, done a lot for me in the past), who indicated he would like to whip up exactly the kind of Town Hall you're describing (3-tiered (stone) Ziggurat with Log stuff that gets bigger)... But he's incredibly busy, and I haven't heard from him in a while.

Y'know, if you like the idea enough, I wouldn't mind seeing your interpretation of it all... Especially if that interpretations were 3D and came in a .mdx format...
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-09-2015, 06:51 PM
handclaw handclaw is offline


handclaw's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,338

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Y'know, if you like the idea enough, I wouldn't mind seeing your interpretation of it all... Especially if that interpretations were 3D and came in a .mdx format...
Ye mean something like this? : p

__________________


I am handclaw and this is my favorite thread on Scrolls of Lore!... oh wait, nope... Just another bitching thread.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-09-2015, 11:30 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
Ye mean something like this? : p

Why, yes... Something very much like that, actually..

Though I'm hoping it comes in more than just a .jpg...
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-10-2015, 08:13 AM
handclaw handclaw is offline


handclaw's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,338

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Why, yes... Something very much like that, actually..

Though I'm hoping it comes in more than just a .jpg...
What? I can't hear you over this .jpgs

__________________


I am handclaw and this is my favorite thread on Scrolls of Lore!... oh wait, nope... Just another bitching thread.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-12-2015, 09:48 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by handclaw View Post
What? I can't hear you over this .jpgs

Should I talk louder? YOU NEED TO STOP MAKING MY FREAKIN' DAY, MAN.

Dang, man, it's lookin' real neat. I particularly like "mega-mayan-ziggurat" feel. (How do you color the geosets like that; it really helps in visualizing it even before a texture goes on.) As always, your great execution of the Blizzard style leaves me breathless.

If I may say, perhaps there could be a bit more done by way of 'transition' between the Tiers; i.e. from T1 to T2 the stone towers pop up outta nowhere, and from T2 to T3 the whole wooden structure is entirely replaced by a massive stone ziggurat.

Maybe 1 can have a stone base (or at least 4 small square stone bases, for each of the pillars, or even a sort of "low fence" ringing the structure, from which towers 'spring')... And then perhaps T3 could feature some kind of "leftover" wood architecture (maybe the hut-top, or those wooden arches, or even a roof)? Or T2 could feature a bit more stone underneath it...

Hmm... But yeah, so cool! Keep me informed. : )
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-12-2015, 08:35 PM
Acanthostega Acanthostega is offline

Archer
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 25

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Curse you, swaying my opinions with yours. :<

I'll admit, when I first saw them, I didn't particularly like them (as aforementioned, I like the Logs, and I'm not as big a fan of the bright, 'dead palm leaves' color scheme going on there. However, I do like the "parts of a ship" bit & the "stilts" bit... And what you say bears some looking into.

i.e. There are plenty of times in Wc3 where Blizzard got resourceful (translation: lazy) and either re-used resources, re-colored textures (for different Creeps), or simply homogenized stuff. It could very well be argued that Trolls are one of them. In fact, to be fair the only Trollish architecture we witness in all of RoC are those (Forest) Troll log huts (2 kinds) & the Horde's "Burrow" (which in MPQ files is known as the "Troll Burrow" for some reason). Come TFT, we get one more; the Voodoo Lounge (which is, again, made up of Logs & voodoo paraphrenalia).

So... Well, actually now that I bring it up, the TFT Voodoo Lounge is a point against the "Blizzard lazily re-used resources but would've made J.Trolls different".
Actually, both the Shadow Hunter and the Voodoo lunge were not made for tFT ; they were unused resources left from the beta stages... They predate the idea of distinguishing new 'Jungle Trolls' from the former 'Forest Trolls'. So it is re-using stuff.

I wouldn't count the burrow as troll architecture. Blizzard tried several things with it ; in the playable betas Grunt, Head Hunters and Peons could enter the burrow. The 'troll burrow' name left in the MPQ probably came up from a stage where only head hunters could enter it, just like Riflemen could enter the steam tank ; I guess unlike the 'terran bunker' it would mostly refer to who were going to use it, not which culture conceived it, thought I could be wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-13-2015, 08:15 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acanthostega
I wouldn't count the burrow as troll architecture. Blizzard tried several things with it ; in the playable betas Grunt, Head Hunters and Peons could enter the burrow. The 'troll burrow' name left in the MPQ probably came up from a stage where only head hunters could enter it, just like Riflemen could enter the steam tank ; I guess unlike the 'terran bunker' it would mostly refer to who were going to use it, not which culture conceived it, thought I could be wrong.
Yeah, no, I think you're right. I suppose I meant to put that in quotes, because it's nearly obvious that it's not really Trollish architecture. (If anything, I think the name may have come from the fact that even though it's manned by Peons, the projectile is a spear; in fact, an identical spear to the ones the (Troll) Headhunter throws).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acanthostega View Post
Actually, both the Shadow Hunter and the Voodoo lunge were not made for tFT ; they were unused resources left from the beta stages... They predate the idea of distinguishing new 'Jungle Trolls' from the former 'Forest Trolls'. So it is re-using stuff.
You know, you're absolutely right; I forgot about that. The VL was present in Beta shots, wasn't it? Well then, I suppose that does lend credence to that idea...

However, I still (personally) love the Logs, and I'm still not convinced that it was entirely unintentional/lazy. IIRC, weren't Vol'jin & his tribe known as "Island Trolls" at one point? I don't know if WoW continues that distinction... But does anyone have any pics of the Jungle Trolls from the actual jungle? Like Gurubashi, Skullsplitter, Bloodscalp, etc? I wonder what their buildings look like...
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-13-2015, 11:43 AM
Acanthostega Acanthostega is offline

Archer
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 25

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
You know, you're absolutely right; I forgot about that. The VL was present in Beta shots, wasn't it?
early pic : troll hut, voodoo lunge, witch doctor with shadow hunter portrait
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/gallery...lbum=39&pos=54

late pre-beta pic : different texture for the burrow (matches the icon)
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/gallery...bum=39&pos=131
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-13-2015, 02:47 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

Hey, that's right. I knew they were around somewhere (thanks for finding them; I couldn't).

You know, that 2nd pic kinda makes me wonder... With that old Beta Lumbermill (which IIRC was sorta 'Troll-inspired') and the old texture for the "Troll" Burrow... They both feature tightly-strung leather skins. I wonder if the Trolls wouldn't instead feature that, racially/aesthetically...
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-20-2015, 10:10 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

Priestess of the Moon
Khyrberos's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 592

Default

DOUBLE POST

Well, while we bide our time until Handclaw graces this thread once again with his model-tastic presence, I figured I should continue the conversation on a different thread.

On Leadership, I'm pretty partial to the idea of a di-partite government (as it were); basically, Trolls are all about one of two 'paths' in life; the way of the warrior and the way of the wizard (lame). Physical & Spiritual, Mortal & Ghostly, Matter & Energy, blah & blah. I think it makes sense to make each Tribe headed (physically) by a Chieftain/Warlord/Warchief/etc, and (spiritually) by a Witch Doctor/Shaman/etc.

One takes care of one 'world', the other the other. The Chieftain makes sure the tribe's physical needs are met (primarily safety), whereas the Shaman makes sure the tribe's spiritual needs are met (esp. appeasing the spirits & communing with the elements & such).

This would be beneficial for the campaign; I think it'd be good to focus on the "Warchief" (NoName the Warbringer) and the "Shaman" (NoName2 the Medicine Mon).

On Regeneration, I feel like sorta blowing off the whole "Loa" thing as sort of an aside. Ah dannae, I just like the idea of a very physical, 'explainable' regeneration, if you will. I don't know how, but I wanna focus on the idea that it's a very natural thing for Trolls.

Part of this is considering/explaining it in such a way that makes it 'believable' (lol)... I am thinking along the lines of "Wolverine-esque". Like, as an example, wounds would heal super-fast, scar-tissue minimal. The Troll body would be extremely good at regenerating most basic injuries. Personally, though, I have a hard time seeing entire bones regrow & such... So take a Troll who has his arm cut off. Will an entire new arm grow back? No way. But grab the severed arm, stick it on the stump, and will it regenerate back together in working order? Sure. What would take a humans months I want a Troll to take weeks, or maybe even days.
Fire cauterizes the wound, quenching the 'healing-ness' of the flesh & thus is abhorrent to most Trolls.
Decapitation = instant death??

Now to Deconstruct:... In a world where your enemies regenerate inhumanely fast, what is combat? A lot more nasty, given that your foes literally have to be chopped up, beheaded and/or burned alive to really *kill* them. Lots of grudges, lots of scars. Not a lot of deaths.
Moreover, what happens to prisoners with information... What use is torture when they can just heal it all back?
//EDIT// NO WAIT THAT'S PERFECT... Aww that's horrible. Torture is even worse for Trolls, since they can regenerate so well... Instead of all that pesky "dying" under pressure, Torture would be a serious threat to a Troll (though perhaps a very commonplace one)

Also, from a book I read long ago (would love someone to tell me what it's called), which featured a similar race (in that they regenerated super-fast), a member of that race highlighted an important tactic in 'dealing with' other people of his kind: since they regenerate so quickly, normal wounds that might be debilitating or even mortal to a regular human are paltry to a (whatever). Instead, he elected to inflict particularly painful & long-healing injuries to incapacitate others like him; he cut the tendons in the shoulder & leg, which curl up & take FOREVER to heal properly. Totally incapacitating.

~~~

Thoughts?

//EDIT//
MOUNTAIN GIANT, woot.
__________________
(The User Formerly Known as 'Triumvirate')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
critical thinking, deconstruction ahoy, jamaican overload, jungle trolls, master race, mon, trolls

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.