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Old 04-15-2017, 09:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Mana The Great Big "Who Would Win?" Debate thread

You know the threads, Goku Vs. Saitama, Batman vs. Superman, Thrall vs. Jaina, the discussions and debates that REALLY matter on the internet.

Well here is the hallowed battlefield on which those battles can be fought.

And to start us off, a pair of underappreciated contenders

In this corner, THE UR-QUAN!
http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Ur-Quan

The Kzer-za


Quote:
The "Green Ur-Quan" are not natural. They were genetically engineered by the Dnyarri to serve as their "thinkers", to fill the roles of scientists, technicians, and overseers of the growing Dnyarri Slave Empire. Unfortunately for each of the new Ur-Quan subspecies, the genetic manipulation permanently divided them and exterminated the original species once and for all. The Dnyarri being as they were did not care to name either creation, and it was not until the slave revolt against their oppressive, mind controlling masters that this species named themselves after Kzer-Za, a hero who martyred himself to discover the secret to freeing their species from eternal enslavement.

From that day forward, the Kzer-Za would follow the Path of Now and Forever. This doctrine states that they must seek out all sentient (likely mistaken for sapient by the creators of the series, like most other Sci-Fi stories) life and offer them a choice: to either serve the Kzer-Za enslaved as a race of Battle Thralls or to be permanently imprisoned within a Slave Shield atmosphere dome through which there was no known escape. The Kzer-Za are aware that this way of life may be incorrect and so they willingly participated in the Doctrinal Conflict with their brothers, the Kohr-Ah, which began above the skies of the homeworld of their former allies, the Mael-Num.

For thousands of years they have circled the galaxy, enslaving sapient races into their Hierarchy of Battle Thralls or imprisoning them under impenetrable slave shields. Even one battle in their long history is an extreme situation in the eyes of a younger race. The Great War that most contemporary races speak of was, to the Kzer-Za, just another of a thousand conquests.

The Ur-Quan Kzer-Za go to war in their incredible powerful and intimidating Dreadnought starships, and for a time possessed a Precursor vessel known as the Sa-Matra.
http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Ur-Quan_Kzer-Za


and

The Khor-Ah


Ur Quan History and Culture:

Quote:
The "Black Ur-Quan" are not natural. They were genetically engineered by the Dnyarri 20,000 years ago to serve them as their "effectors", to fill the role of the builders and warriors for the growing Dnyarri Empire. Unfortunately for each of the new Ur-Quan subspecies, the genetic manipulation permanently divided them and exterminated the original species once and for all. Being that the Dnyarri did not care to name either creation, it was not until the slave revolt against their oppressive, mind controlling masters that this species named themselves after Kohr-Ah, after a hero - a starship captain - who survived the revolt against their oppressors, and whom is credited with the development of the Eternal Doctrine, which all Kohr-Ah adhere themselves to.

Similar to their green-hued cousins, the Kohr-Ah are driven by a severe need to prevent anything like the Dnyarri Slavery to ever happen to their species again. Unlike the Kzer-Za, however, the Kohr-Ah see genocide of other sapient races as the only reliable solution.

However, they also believe in interstellar reincarnation, preventing them from having anything remotely related to an ethical problem to this, as they believe that each alien they kill could - and will - eventually be reborn as an Ur-Quan.
http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Ur-Quan_Kohr-Ah


Against their challengers THE KOMATO!



Komato History and Culture:

Quote:
Author: Tasen Universal Logbook
Subject: Summary of history, Part 1: Komato
Hailing from a remote planet now known as Origin, the current population size of the Komato – 160 billion individuals – is only a wild guess. During their inception, their intellect and technology evolved at an astounding pace. The starturns passed, and after a war-torn history and extreme technological advances, they eventually managed to invent mass space travel. The Komatos’ future now lay in deep space, and thus they abandoned Origin without looking back, knowing that whatever races would evolve huge armada of starships and troops was constructed – the Komato Imperial Army. A multitude of uninhabited planets were chosen as breeding ground and fuel resources, as the Komato planned to become the greatest civilization they would ever know. Even after countless starturns had passed, only occasionally did they send scout teams back to Origin, which eventually reported that another race calling itself the “humans” had appeared. However, High Command couldn’t possible consider this “pathetic excuse for a lifeform” a threat, and let them be.

Quote:
Author: Komato Imperial Weapon Industries
Subject: Advertisement
Bored? Tired of your neighbor? Tired of your boss? Tired of those pesky Tasen infesting the universe? Well then BLOW THEM ALL AWAY, with the latest Nanoweapon from Komato Imperial Weapon Industries! Yes, the Resonance detonator will happily blow all utilizing your own personal strength, it may be favored by powerhouses like Berserkers, but after a few weeks at the local gym and with this little bundle of Nanotechnological joy, even the wimpiest of Komato can knock over their un-favorite adversary flying through the air! Order yours TODAY for the low, LOW sum of 25,000 Units! (Komato Imperial Weapon Industries cannot be held responsible for personal injury, technical problems, or being fired from work for blowing your boss out of the window.)
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:48 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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First of all, thank you for bringing up the Ur-Quan. I'm sure Revenant is also thankful.

I don't know much about the Komato. Do they have much experience fighting others? Both branches of the Ur-Quan race have been fighting for ages.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:11 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
First of all, thank you for bringing up the Ur-Quan. I'm sure Revenant is also thankful.

I don't know much about the Komato. Do they have much experience fighting others? Both branches of the Ur-Quan race have been fighting for ages.
I'll answer that question with a bit of Komato history.

Quote:
Author: Komato Recreational Unit
Subject: Hyper Turret Game – History

In the early times of the Tasen-Komato war, many raids on Tasen starships and battlecruisers were made, and they often faced heavy resistance, sometimes, however, the invading force so greatly overpowered the crew of the Tasen spaceship that it became more of a game. When one particular Komato Berserker came face-to-muzzle with a Tasen Turret, he accidentally fired his Resonance detonator – it sent the turret flying off its support pole, bouncing around the room, until it came to a halt in front of a platoon of other Komato. One of them kicked the turret back across the room, and the Hyper Turret Game was born. The platoon split up into two teams, and tried their best to kick the turret into a door behind the opposing team. Any Tasen that happened to interfere with the game were swiftly taken care of, and the turret kicking game continued. Before long, it was decided that the use of Resonance detonators and Hyper pulse Nanoweapons were also allowed while playing the game, to increase the mayhem. Whenever the turret became mangled beyond use or exploded into debris, the platoon simply headed off to find a new one. The Komato platoon was later given honorary medals for their field studies in “creative combat”.

Quote:
Author: Komato Berserker 34764-56987-43655
Subject: Self-destruct issues
Some troops question the use of the self-destruct mode installed in Berserkers, Beasts and Annihilators. As you know, it’s integral to the effectiveness of the Beasts to trigger the Shocksplinter explosives embedded in their armor upon death, and it’s imperative not to let the Tasen get their hands on the weapons left behind by dead Berserkers. One of the keys to the Tasens’ inability to catch up with our technology has always relied heavily on the fact that they can’t salvage any Nanoarmor or NanogunsFrom the more advanced of our fallen troops, as they simply blow into bits when killed. And when it comes to the Annihilators, who cares? They usually take everything on the battlefield with them anyway. As for the Generals, yes, it’s true that they used to carry Random Particle Displacement warheads inside their armor until the tragic loss of General Taeho, whose warhead suffered critical failure and leveled two cities. But that’s all behind us – now no self-destruct device is so powerful as to be the worse threat to our own army than to the Tasen.
So to put it simply, the Komato are basically a militaristic empire so huge that the only threat to it is itself.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:19 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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NATO and Saudi Arabia vs Russia, China and Iran GO!

Just kidding, no politics

Plus it's a trick question, that war is probably unwinnable with current tech.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:27 PM
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Ogre 'A strange game - the only winning move is not to play'

Who wins: an entire island of cyclops vs. Odysseus?

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
NATO and Saudi Arabia vs Russia, China and Iran GO!

Just kidding, no politics

Plus it's a trick question, that war is probably unwinnable with current tech.
Nobody can win that game - an international war of that scale would be calamitous for civilization. D:
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Who wins: an entire island of cyclops vs. Odysseus?

Nobody can win that game - an international war of that scale would be calamitous for civilization. D:
Odysseus, have you SEEN his Bluff Stat?
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:43 AM
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I figure the Komato could probably take a sizable chunk out of the Ur-Quan, especially if they took out all the stops and went full Gen 2+ weaponry against them. From what I've read about the Ur-Quan, though, I think they'd probably win out.

Neither side has a problem with scorched-earth policies, and each is the biggest fish in its respective pond, but I suspect the Ur-Quan may have an advantage in numbers, if nothing else.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:03 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I would also go with the Ur-Quan.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I figure the Komato could probably take a sizable chunk out of the Ur-Quan, especially if they took out all the stops and went full Gen 2+ weaponry against them. From what I've read about the Ur-Quan, though, I think they'd probably win out.

Neither side has a problem with scorched-earth policies, and each is the biggest fish in its respective pond, but I suspect the Ur-Quan may have an advantage in numbers, if nothing else.
I think you might be right but it depends on a few factors, the Komato do have a chance to pull ahead depending on the course of the war. Can Phantom Hammer's and Alpha Strikes punch through the planetary shielding used by the Ur-Quan? Do the Ur-Quan bring the Sa-Matra to bear against the Komato or do the Kzer-Za try to keep it in reserve? How do Komato Nanofields interact with the Ur-Quan weaponry?

As for numbers...
Quote:
Author: Komato Berserker 21435-56097-16959
Subject: We’ve passed the point of no return
Few seem to like thinking about the future of our species, and rightly so. We’re so advanced, we’ve been able to hunt the Tasen clear across deep space without a single individual escaping our grasp, at least to our knowledge. With the Alpha Strike, we have reliable planet killer technology – and the Star Strike may soon no longer be just a theory. We are the grandest, most organized lifeform we have ever come across. Despite past wars, High Command keeps us together, and we colonize an exponentially accelerating number of planets. It’s simply impossible for our race to ever be extinguished if we keep growing at this pace. Back on Origin we were ruled by nature, but now the galaxy belongs to us. With the Imperial Army controlling the military branch uncontested, any planet - any species, any solar system High Command so wishes – we can and will destroy if we put the time and resources into it. The Komato will be eternal.
Now obviously the Komato have a pretty high opinion of themselves but it's not all talk, they're pretty advanced and pretty brutal.

The main difference from what I can see, is that the Komato put a lot of resources into infantry (even if some of their higher up Infantry, like the Annihilators and Generals, can take out ships essentially on their own), while the Ur-Quan seem to focus more on their ships (this is due to the differences in gameplay between the ship based Star Control and the MetroidVania-style Iji of course)
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:46 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I think you might be right but it depends on a few factors, the Komato do have a chance to pull ahead depending on the course of the war. Can Phantom Hammer's and Alpha Strikes punch through the planetary shielding used by the Ur-Quan? Do the Ur-Quan bring the Sa-Matra to bear against the Komato or do the Kzer-Za try to keep it in reserve? How do Komato Nanofields interact with the Ur-Quan weaponry?

As for numbers...


Now obviously the Komato have a pretty high opinion of themselves but it's not all talk, they're pretty advanced and pretty brutal.

The main difference from what I can see, is that the Komato put a lot of resources into infantry (even if some of their higher up Infantry, like the Annihilators and Generals, can take out ships essentially on their own), while the Ur-Quan seem to focus more on their ships (this is due to the differences in gameplay between the ship based Star Control and the MetroidVania-style Iji of course)
The advantage would go to the ones with the ships. With a superior navy, they can just bombard a planet into submission. Infantry's most important for taking and controlling vital assets, but given that the Ur-Quan seem to actually inhabit only a handful of worlds (and the Kohr-Ah, so far as I can tell, are nomadic) this probably doesn't matter so much.

The Ur-Quan could also slave-shield a planet that they want to preserve for later use.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:57 PM
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The advantage would go to the ones with the ships. With a superior navy, they can just bombard a planet into submission. Infantry's most important for taking and controlling vital assets, but given that the Ur-Quan seem to actually inhabit only a handful of worlds (and the Kohr-Ah, so far as I can tell, are nomadic) this probably doesn't matter so much.

The Ur-Quan could also slave-shield a planet that they want to preserve for later use.
Thats why I think it boils down to if the Komato phantom hammer can penetrate urquan shields and ships, and how effective nanofields are

If it can, then Komato can board and destroy urquan ships, giving them a shot, but if it can't then they could probably fight for awhile but ultimately lose
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:03 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Thats why I think it boils down to if the Komato phantom hammer can penetrate urquan shields and ships, and how effective nanofields are

If it can, then Komato can board and destroy urquan ships, giving them a shot, but if it can't then they could probably fight for awhile but ultimately lose
The Orz marines in Star Control 2 can still board Ur-Quan ships, so that's probably feasible for the Komato as well. When it comes down to Orz marines getting through the Ur-Quan defenses, it really depends on the skill of the player.

It can be done, but it's not easy. Marines can get shot down in transit, or sometimes get lost. On the other hand, if the marine gets on-board while a significant chunk of the dreadnought's crew is out in fighters, things could turn very bad for the Ur-Quan.

If we're adding in the Kohr-Ah, it could get much tougher. The ring of fire technique would annihilate any marines near the ship, and the blade mines pose another risk.

Interesting note: each Kzer-Za dreadnought has only a single Ur-Quan. The rest of the crew consists of battle thralls. This is because the Ur-Quan are so territorial that they can't easily function with others of their own kind.
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:01 PM
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Sidious would still wreck Vitiate's shit in the old EU despite what any Swtor baby say.
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:24 PM
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The Orz marines in Star Control 2 can still board Ur-Quan ships, so that's probably feasible for the Komato as well. When it comes down to Orz marines getting through the Ur-Quan defenses, it really depends on the skill of the player.

It can be done, but it's not easy. Marines can get shot down in transit, or sometimes get lost. On the other hand, if the marine gets on-board while a significant chunk of the dreadnought's crew is out in fighters, things could turn very bad for the Ur-Quan.

If we're adding in the Kohr-Ah, it could get much tougher. The ring of fire technique would annihilate any marines near the ship, and the blade mines pose another risk.

Interesting note: each Kzer-Za dreadnought has only a single Ur-Quan. The rest of the crew consists of battle thralls. This is because the Ur-Quan are so territorial that they can't easily function with others of their own kind.
Hmm, do we have a point of reference for the Orz combat ability?

Also, battle thralls add an interesting wrinkle, Komato could alternately free or purge slaved worlds

It seems like the Komato would have a pretty decent shot against the Kzer-za in that case but the kohr-ah focus on short range buzz saws, fire rings, and mines, might neutralize the komatos boarding and infantry advantages
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:42 PM
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Who would win: Sheev or Vicky Von Doom?
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:05 PM
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Who would win: Sheev or Vicky Von Doom?
Von Doom, he's got tech AND magic and he can do a lot of it himself

If armies are involved, probably Sheev because the empire spans worlds while Latveria is a single country
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:11 PM
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One counter the Komato might have to the probable fleet superiority of the Ur-Quan is their ability to teleport commandos directly to combat zones. It's possible they could bypass most actual ship-to-ship combat by sending a few assassins to take out each Kzer-Za dreadnought's Ur-Quan.

---

Vivec versus Doctor Manhattan
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:38 PM
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One counter the Komato might have to the probable fleet superiority of the Ur-Quan is their ability to teleport commandos directly to combat zones. It's possible they could bypass most actual ship-to-ship combat by sending a few assassins to take out each Kzer-Za dreadnought's Ur-Quan.

---

Vivec versus Doctor Manhattan


That's true, the assassins would probably not have a lot of trouble getting to, and killing, the Ur-Quan there once they'd mapped out the ships.

---

Having not played elder scrolls I don't feel qualified to give a proper answer, skimming Vivec's wiki I feel like it'd depend on why and how they had come into conflict, Manhattan and Vivec may orchestrate such a conflict (or rather, Vivec would orchestrate it and Manhattan would not attempt to avoid it despite being aware of it.) to achieve some mutual goal, such as Manhattans suicide.
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:43 PM
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Hmm, do we have a point of reference for the Orz combat ability?

Also, battle thralls add an interesting wrinkle, Komato could alternately free or purge slaved worlds

It seems like the Komato would have a pretty decent shot against the Kzer-za in that case but the kohr-ah focus on short range buzz saws, fire rings, and mines, might neutralize the komatos boarding and infantry advantages
I think the success of the Orz marine is randomly determined. The Orz themselves might be the weirdest race in Star Control 2 in that they are (probably) extensions—like fingers—of a single extra-dimensional being.

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One counter the Komato might have to the probable fleet superiority of the Ur-Quan is their ability to teleport commandos directly to combat zones. It's possible they could bypass most actual ship-to-ship combat by sending a few assassins to take out each Kzer-Za dreadnought's Ur-Quan.

---

Vivec versus Doctor Manhattan
Vicec would probably just seduce Doctor Manhattan.
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:06 PM
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I think the success of the Orz marine is randomly determined. The Orz themselves might be the weirdest race in Star Control 2 in that they are (probably) extensions—like fingers—of a single extra-dimensional being.



Vicec would probably just seduce Doctor Manhattan.
-Huh-. Interesting. The Komato would -probably- be better at it if for no other reason than the Annihilators. Once they're onboard if they don't kill their way through the battle-thralls to the Ur-Quan, then their self-destruct explosions would probably wreck the ship from the inside.

Reinforces the notion of the KzerZa being easier to deal with since the Kohr-Ah have the majority of the melee weapons and ship defenses that would deal with attempts to board them, but that still leaves the assassins.


---

Who's to say Tamriel isn't Dr. Manhattans Conworld that he made after leaving earth? Who's to say WE'RE not?
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:15 PM
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Who's to say Tamriel isn't Dr. Manhattans Conworld that he made after leaving earth? Who's to say WE'RE not?
That would make him the Amaranth, which makes that Hlaalu bastard's suggestion even more appropriate.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:55 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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vs

Who would assimilate who?
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:00 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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vs

Who would assimilate who?
Is the Overmind still calling the shots?
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:06 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Is the Overmind still calling the shots?
I didn't even think of that. Wouldn't queen vs queen be a more even comparison? My SC lore is pretty rusty. I haven't played since a little bit before I made my drunk rambling comeback to the forums here.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:20 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I didn't even think of that. Wouldn't queen vs queen be a more even comparison? My SC lore is pretty rusty. I haven't played since a little bit before I made my drunk rambling comeback to the forums here.
The Overmind was ancient, wise and cunning. Kerrigan was impulsive, selfish and boastful. She might put up a good fight, but doesn't have the kind of far-reaching insight to orchestrate a true war of assimilation.

It was the Overmind's goal to unite the Zerg's purity of essence with the Protoss' purity of form. It almost succeeded, too. I suspect the Borg represent a similar strength of form, but I don't think they have the kind of psionic firepower Tassadar needed to actually kill the Overmind. So if the Overmind's still in charge, my money's on the Zerg.
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